So Walker appealed to the captain, who serves as the top guy on the flight. But he told her he was deferring to his first officer, Gannon.
By now, Walker was upset. She says she sought out the other two flight attendants, Sue Burris and Brian Shunick. Both, like her, had nearly 20 years' experience with America West. Since the three had been flying together nonstop for the past month, they had an easy camaraderie.
All three agree: They saw ice.
"I've been with this company 20-something years," Shunick says. "I see ice on the wings, I know what it is."
This is the point where I, as a frequent flier, start feeling really nervous. Of course, we're always in a rush for takeoff, and when the pilot gets on the intercom and talks about how we're going to be delayed because they're doing some safety check, I roll my eyes just like anyone else.
But contamination on the wing is serious, serious business. This is not just better-safe-than-sorry; this is, literally, life and death.
So, of course, the flight attendants were freaking out. The pilots had pushed back from the gate and were preparing to taxi to the runway. The flight attendants felt they had to do something to get the pilots' attention.
"We had to think of something fast," Walker says. The three recalled that, as they gazed out the windows looking at the ice on the wings, the passengers seated nearby wondered aloud what they were doing. Those inquiries, they thought, might have provided enough cover to persuade the pilots to change their minds. "So we decided," Walker says, "we'll say that the passengers are asking about it."
It fell to Burris to make the call. She phoned the cockpit and explained that she'd heard comments; the passengers were concerned about the ice on the wings.
It was a lie. But from the point of view of anyone who's ever been a passenger on a plane, I think it was a forgivable one.
After Burris made that call, First Officer Gannon came out of the cockpit and inspected the wings himself. As he came back toward the flight deck, as Walker would later write in a memo to the FAA, he grumbled, "Now we have to de-ice to cover our ass."
Cover our ass. Not prevent a major catastrophe, but cover our ass. Nice.
So de-ice they did, and the plane took off. But the incident was so alarming to Walker that, immediately upon landing at Sky Harbor, she made her way to the airline's on-site offices. She explained how Gannon had twice blown her off and it was only after their third attempt to raise the issue that he finally obliged.
Walker says the company was alarmed enough to get a FAA representative on speakerphone. The FAA rep asked Walker to make a written statement — and asked for statements from Burris and Shunick, too. All three were happy to comply.
But without thinking of the ramifications, they made a mistake. In their statements, they repeated their claim that the passengers had raised the issue of the icy wings.
Later, when the FAA was investigating the matter and summoned the three for sworn testimonies, they would volunteer the truth: They'd made up the passenger concern just because they didn't know how else to get the pilots' attention. The discrepancy in their accounts would later become a major issue.
But they weren't thinking about that in 2003, moments after their safe landing in Phoenix, as they prepared their statements. They were only thinking about what might have been. "I'd never in my then-18 years written up anybody for anything," Walker says.
Burris agrees; she'd never lodged a complaint either. "But this was a potential catastrophe. To fly with contamination . . . You just don't do that."
As it turns out, the flight attendants weren't the only people who thought the pilots' actions that day were troubling. Unbeknownst to them, the de-icing crew at the Calgary airport filled out an "irregularity report" of their own.
"At about 6:15 [a.m.], my de-icing partner . . . approached a member of the flight crew, asking if they were going to require a de-icer," wrote Arnie Getz, a Calgary-based worker. "They said no, that they were fine."
That seemed odd to him. "We were both surprised," Getz wrote, "because we could see the frost on the wings and the fuselage." Yet only after the plane had pushed back for departure, Getz noted, was it towed back into position for de-icing.
If Getz's testimony is correct, Paula Walker and her fellow flight attendants may well have saved Flight 851.
After the flight attendants filed their statements with the FAA, they didn't push the matter. Nobody called the newspapers. Nobody lobbied for the pilots to be punished.
"We figured we did our job, and now it was their job," Burris recalls.
They heard nothing for three years.
"We figured nothing had happened," Walker says.
But then they got a call from a lawyer at the FAA. The agency was pursuing the matter; it was going to call them all in for depositions.
Ray sounds like a prideful, ass. The flight attendants crossed the line by lying. They shouldn't fly with a pilot if they don't trust the pilots decisions. However, pilots like Ray here are the pricks that make attendants like, Sonia Hartwick, to nervous to say anything. Pilots are in charge and should be able to manage a crew that invites input but also shows confidence in the final decision. as a side note i bet ray is divorced and has a couple kids that hate him.
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Yea, where did the money go that people like myself donated to their cause. No learning that they got paid back in full, I would sure like to get my money back. Please respond.
They were refunded their lawyers fees, are there any plans on paying those people back who so generously donated?
Amazing. Has anyone ever heard of the "past practice rule" whereby the Union and the Airline are in bed together to agree on this hidden rule that is not anywhere in a collective bargaining agreement and only used to fire an employee
I am just scared with the story. This is the first time I hear this and off course I only read the cabin crew version. I would like to hear from the flightdeck crew in order to make an informed decision. For those individuals that have commented that they are afraid of flying on US Airways keep in mind the Hudson miracle and the brave story of the flight deck and the cabin crew in saving 155 lives from a possible tragedy. I work for this airline and can assure you that in all my years of recurrent training there has been an emphasis in what we call CRM (crew resource management) where the cabin crew is encouraged to communicate with the flight deck crew for any safety related concern. As always the captain in command is in charge and we must respect his/her authority. However in all the years working for US Airways I never experienced a situation like the one described or anything similar and all my flight deck crews during the initial briefing recommend that if we notice anything abnormal in the cabin to communicate immediately with them even if we have to break sterile flightdeck. This has been a procedure for the east us airways crews for many years. I would not be able to comment on the west procedures since we only aligned our procedures recently. I also have not had a chance to work with any of the west crews since we work under separate contracts, but I would like to assure the traveling public that independent of the outcome of this lawsuit that all US Airways employee groups work to maintain the highest safety standards for our passengers, crewmembers and fellow co-workers.
Flight Attendant
this is disgusting- what the hell was wrong with those idiot pilots- did they intentionally want to kill all on board- were they on drugs? absolute rejects- those so called pilots should have been fired on the spot! what jerks.
I'm not flying on US Airways until they support these flight attendants. What do you think is going to happen the next time a US flight attendant sees ice on the wings (or any problem for that matter)? Knowing the lack of support and perhaps even fearing retaliation should they complain about the lack of support, they may not say anything. Until they know they can speak up, I'm not getting on a US Airways plane. It's not so much a matter of principle, but one of safety.
First of all the aircraft did not require de-icing. The Flight Attendants are not trained to determine this. The FAA and the NTSB determined, in court, found that the pilots were correct in their initial decision. The Aircraft was de-iced unnecessarily costing the company money. After this was pointed out, in court, the company should have terminated all three of them. That should have been the end of the story....
I'm not flying on US Airways until they support these flight attendants. What do you think is going to happen the next time a US flight attendant sees ice on the wings (or any problem for that matter)? Knowing the lack of support and perhaps even fearing retaliation should they complain about the lack of support, they may not say anything. Until they know they can speak up, I'm not getting on a US Airways plane. It's not so much a matter of principle, but one of safety.
Ray- with comments like that, maybe someday you will be lucky enough to get a dose of Visine.
There is alot more to this story than what we are reading here. A few other people are correct. The Union, the Airline, both pilots, the FAA, the investigators from each agency all determined there was nothing to this... anybody who knows anything at all about the airlines knows that these folks almost never agree.There are Capt's who deice just because the weather is cold, and it makes the passengers feel better, and gives the impression the airline is safe. Deicing is also very very expensive. If the plane doesn't need it, then the plane doesn't need it. How many people reading this story even know what has to be deiced and what does NOT have to be deiced? There is no requirement to deice an entire aircraft. Do these flight attendants think the pilots had some kind of death wish? The article says the first officer did inspect the airplane... that's it, done, end of story. They did their job when they reported their concern, it was properly addressed because a PILOT had inspected it prior to pushback... you know, the ones trained to recognize what does and does not have to be done, what is and isn't right. These three should stick to doing their safety presentation, and just bring us our soda and snacks... When they lose in court, I hope the airline fires them. The last thing we need in the air is for the stewardess to start telling the pilots how to fly the plane... the job is hard enough, I'm sure, without having to deal with that crap too.
"These flight attendants do NOT need money to cover their legal expenses. What they need is to accept the fact that the airline company and the FAA sided with the pilots and move on with their bitter lives."
Someone sued you for $2 million dollars, and you moved on with your life? How's that working out for you? It's difficult to put something behind you when, in fact, the other party involved is the one that keeps pushing it to the fore. They did not sue the F/O - he sued them. For "defamation of character", which in my book is akin to demanding a quarter from the kid on the playground who called you a "poopy pants".
I don't know the whole story. I don't care. I do see inconsistencies in the story, and it's very obvious that this is weighted on the side of the flight attendants. Again, don't care. What I do care about is that if F/O Gannon ever pulls away from the gate again after being warned at least twice, by two different sources, and I'm on the plane, and said plane crashes, and I am injured or killed, he better get used to: 1) Paying out a whole lot of money for lawsuits which he deserves; and 2) Being haunted for allowing his ego to harm anyone else.
To: US Airways
I was just looking for airline tickets. I know which airline I'm not booking a flight or any segment with now or in the future.
And, as a former union member who was proud of his union, the flight attendants union should be ashamed of its failure to back its members...
My sister is a flight attendant and I have to say that she has told me some horror stories of the cocky pilots and how god forbid a flight attendant was ever correct, now there are a few good pilots, don't get me wrong, but something is truely wrong with this country where you can sue for saving peoples lives. Who cares if they lied, if the plane had crashed and one of these flight attendants survived and said I tried to tell the pilots BUT they wouldn't listen, then the public would say he/she should have done whatever it took to convince the pilot to de-ice the plane, even if it meant lying. If the ignorant pilots wouldn't listen to them, they did what they thought was necessary to save lives, including the pilots, so get over it already and drop this lawsuit against these f/a!!!!!
Whether or not you side with the First Officer or the flight attendants in this case, no one has addressed this:
Every major airline has in place a program called CLR (Cockpit Leadership Resources). It goes by a wide variety of names today.
It was put in place after the horrific collision in March of 1977 of two Boeing 747 jumbo jets at Los Rodeos Airport in Tenerife. In that case, the F/O of the KLM plane was reluctant to correct the Captain again of his decision to take off without clearance on a fog-shrouded runway.
Since then, airlines have had these programs to teach pilots how to get along with each other (i.e. to work together) to ensure safety. It was designed to bring the captain "down a peg or two" and stop treating the rest of the crew as second-class citizens. I thought pilots were SUPPOSED to be more accepting of input from others in the aircraft.
It appears that this concept failed with F/O Gannon. I fault him and US Airways for encouraging the very kind of behavior that led to history's worst aviation disaster.
Thank you for this story. I teach safety and enviromental health to national corporate clients and college students seeking to enter/transition into workplace safety careers.
I will make sure to share this story and warn everyone away from this carrier which will not stand behind employees who are looking out for our (and their) welfare in such potential life and death decisions.
This education I ams sure will cost this airline more then they would have paid to support their employees in legal fees. (Not to mention having this pilot back off the moment he knows corporate money is behind their employees protecting their right to protect u)..
It is obvious most of the negative comments here have been generated by the FO's family, friends and other employees close to him. Family and friends, go for it but other employees, you should be ashamed. You're villifying people for doing their jobs and backing someone who did not do their job. That tells a lot about US Airways' work environment and their employees' morale and ethics. Pitiful.
Flygirlphx wrote: "What they need is to accept the fact that the airline company and the FAA sided with the pilots and move on with their bitter lives."
You've got it backwards here Flygirl. These people can't move on with their lives because they ARE BEING SUED BY GANNON! Read the article!
Ted (aka "Hartwick??");)why are you taking it personally with me? All I'm doing is giving my opinion (it might be a little strong - but so are everyone else's.) My main point is that there are two sides to every story - and obviously this article only discussed one. Gary I hate to break it to you - the pilot already won. (Which again, is another main point of mine - that he must've won for good reason.)
Just visiting AZ and thanking my lucky stars that my return flight is not on US Airways. There tends to be alot of ice where I come from. Ice, it appears when it's cold. Not rocket science. The FO sounds like he's the one with a vendetta. Hope the flight attendents get through this and then sue the airline and their union.
I am a flight attendant with this same airline and the behavior of this pilot is not only disrespectful towards the safety professionals that work in the cabin, he is a disgrace to all the pilots that do their job properly and professionally without jepordizing anyones safety. Shame on you Mr. Gannon, the fact that you have so little respect for your fellow employees and their ability to detect a safety related problem. This tells me you are no more than an egotistical maniac and I can only pray that I never have to fly with you. You owe an apology to every passenger on that plane for thinking so selfishly. Thank you Brian, Paula and Sue for something that I am sure has been very difficult for all of you. I will donate to your fund, this is for all safety professionals that have concerns whether in the air or on the ground, blowing the whistle can save lives and in fact, you all did that day by taking that road, and I thank you.
If the FO (Ed Gannon) claims that he suffered emotional distress then why does he still have a medical certificate? I don't want my next flight on US Airways to be flown by an emotional distressed pilot who has an aversion to de-icing. Did this pilot tell the flight surgeon that we was being treated for emotional distress on his flight physical? Of did he lie to keep his job? I'd sure like to know before I get on another US Airways flight.
If the FO (Ed Gannon) claims that he suffered emotional distress then why does he still have a medical certificate? I don't want my next flight on US Airways to be flown by an emotional distressed pilot who has an aversion to de-icing. Did this pilot tell the flight surgeon that we was being treated for emotional distress on his flight physical? Of did he lie to keep his job? I'd sure like to know before I get on another US Airways flight.
Flygirlphx (aka "Gannon") wrote: "I am sure that the FO did not do anything wrong or else the FAA would have his license and he would not be working! The FAA takes safety extremely seriously."
Then I guess OJ was innocent, too! ;) Remember, this is the same FAA that looked the other way while Southwest was flunking all kinds of maintenance inspections.
Flygirlphx (aka "Gannon") also wrote: "What they need is to accept the fact that the airline company and the FAA sided with the pilots and move on with their bitter lives."
I'm sure they'd LOVE to move on with their lives. Remember, they aren't the ones suing anybody!
Flygirlphx (aka "Gannon") also wrote: "It seems to me like those flight attendants have a vendetta because they tried to get the FO fired and it didn't work."
What would they have a vendetta about? What would these flight attendants have to gain by making up a story about the first officer? THAT'S what doesn't add up to me. It's not like there's a cash reward for turning in pilot errors.
This is one of the worst articles I've ever read - I agree with the FA from Gilbert - its inconsistent, biased, and unresearched.
These flight attendants do NOT need money to cover their legal expenses. What they need is to accept the fact that the airline company and the FAA sided with the pilots and move on with their bitter lives. It is not easy to get the airline and FAA on your side in the event of safety - you are assumed guilty until proven innocent and after MUCH investigation the pilots were absolved of any wrongdoing. I am sure that the FO did not do anything wrong or else the FAA would have his license and he would not be working! The FAA takes safety extremely seriously.It seems to me like those flight attendants have a vendetta because they tried to get the FO fired and it didn't work. He has every right to seek restitution and I wish him the best of luck in court.
Hey F/A from Gilbert you sure do a lot of assuming. It's quite "clear" that you know the ins and outs of each of those crew members finances. I find it interesting that you choose to harp on the money of it all instead of focusing on the situation that happened. A situation that could very well happen to you, that is assuming that you really are an FA. There are many inconsistancies in your assumptions.
I wish the three crew members good luck and the strength to perservear.
To Silly Girl - The point I was making was that these are economic times when everyone is hurting for money. If you are solicting money from the public then you better step up to the plate yourself. If you have the money to build a vacation home and hardly work why should you be asking others for money? It is obvious that this person has enough money to do these things. I'm not jealous, I just would feel bad asking for money when I am well off financially, which she obviously is. I don't know too many of us flight attendants that can afford a vacation home at this time. I do feel sorry for the other 2, but again - there are too many inconsistancies in this story for me to back them up.
To the F/A from Gilbert (Before you believe that they have all refinanced their homes, that may be true for 2 of them, but it is a fact that one of them is building a vacation home and works only 40 hours every month. Sounds like money isn't a problem for at least one of them.)WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?............are you jealous that someone may be doing well in their life. Are you married to a Pilot? Why shouldn't we know the name of the Pilot when we know the other crewmembers names? I am a F/A for this airline as well and don't feel too well about the company not backing us when we do our job. I want to know who the Captain was and why he was so weak. We need to know who these jerks are in case we have to work with them.
I am a Flight Attendant as well. We all have put the passengers as the complainers at some point to get the Pilots to listen. It's a shame but a lot of the Pilots don't care to give us the benefit of having the knowlidge to make a safety call. If there are enough concerned passengers then they seem to outrank us as Flight Atendants. We need better Team Work.
Doesn't it make you wonder why the union, FAA, and the company have not backed these flight attendants? I have been curious about this whole thing since it went public and have talked to pilots on my trips. (I work for the same airline as these 3 flight attendants). The main consensus is that if this crew had pushed back from the gate needing to be de-iced that would have gotten them fired because they fully intended to fly an aircraft that was unsafe. Even though this crew went back to the gate to de-ice (because the flight attendants said there was ice on the wing), the pilots would have still gotten fired or at least violated by the FAA for the "intent" of taking off without de-icing. The pilots are still here, and according to the posting on another discussion board the F/O has never missed a day of work since this incident. He wasn't fined, violated and the FAA had absolutely nothing to substantiate the claim. Something is very wrong with this whole story. As a flight attendant for 24 years there are MANY inconsistencies in this story. Before you believe that they have all refinanced their homes, that may be true for 2 of them, but it is a fact that one of them is building a vacation home and works only 40 hours every month. Sounds like money isn't a problem for at least one of them. Between that and the fact that this story just does not make sense I will not contribute any money to this. It just doesn't add up. I also find it very irresponsible that the first officer's name was used. What was the point of that? It could have read crewmember or pilot, but to put his name in a publication while he is an active working crewmember at that airline is just plain wrong.
Hey, PWSucks- Maybe you missed it, but the reporter said she TRIED to get the pilot's side, but he wouldn't return her calls. What does THAT tell you?
But hey, maybe the pilot can write a letter to the editor and explain why he's correct and everyone else (the three flight attendants, the de-icers, hell...even HIMSELF when he previously admitted to seeing it) are all wrong. LOL!
I've never heard such nonsense. I've been flying (Cabin Crewmember)for 19 years. The only time I had to write a formal letter about a pilot was after an emergency landing in which we expected to land without landing gear. I won't get into details but there were severe communication slips on the part of the captain. I was praised by my superiors and that was that. The situation these Flight Attendants now find themselves in is unimaginable. I believe their union, who's job it is to represent them, should be doing everything it can to raise money to fund their legal bills. In an ideal world, of course, one would expect the employer to take care of everything. Unfortunately, airlines, like most corporations today, are in dire financial straits and have spent the past couple decades chipping away at their "costs" (ie. fair compensation and protection of their employees).I for one will visit their website and make a donation. Then I'm going to call everyone I know to do the same.ChrisTucson, AZ
Where was the Captain in all this? Seems he, in addition to the FO, dropped the ball completely. After a second opinion about flight safety, the Captain refers to the original source for "verification"?
Outside of substance abuse, I cannot think of anything other than inexperience with an oversized ego in the cockpit and a supreme commander who is anything but. (a little overpaid)
Kudos for the whistleblowers leading to a safe flight. USAirways is, as is typical, pretty stupid for not "backing" the flight attendants.
After reading this artile, it would make a person wonder what is neccesary to stop a pilot from making a serious mistake.I don't agree with lying as a form of justification, but I do think that these attendents did the only thing they knew to do to protect themselves and those people that were in the care of US Airways. Even tho the lie was the wrong approach, I feel that it served the purpose intended, saving some lives possibly.The basic question here should be why were the pilots so passionate to take off without deicing the plane if there was the slightest chance that there was ice.If it was a matter of time, why would they be concerned about taking 10 minutes more to deice? Do they not get paid to sit and deice? What is the motive behind what appears to be a poor decision on the part of the pilots to deice? What appears to have been an err to safety has created a hardship for 3 attendents that should never have been challenged in the first place as it should be obvious from the time they spent in their job positions, they knew there was a problem on this plane.As for the airlines not standing behind these attendents with some defence, I find it totally inappropriate and believe that the airlines themselves should be under investigation for teaching safety practices that they will not defend the employees for imploying in the case of pilot neglect.The real issue here is why should it take a novice passengers complaint real or fictional , to stop what could have been a grave mistake for all on flight?I could say much more about this subject, but apparentely the airline won't listen anyway!I would also like to know where this pilots flight plans take him normally, so I don't get on his flights and end up a casualty to what may be another poor judgment call in the future.
I think Gannon should tell the REAL side of the story...
Amazing how the FAA and US Airways doesn't fine him. If he is not suspended or fired, something is not right with this story.
Flight attendant salary: $30,000.00
Internet Subscription: $12.95
Doing anything to get your 15 mintues of fame: Priceless
Great article, Sarah! This pilot sounds kind of like the administrative law judge who sued his dry-cleaner for $54,000,000 after claiming that they ruined his pants, taking the whole process through years and layers of appeals.
There is also a blog and legal defense fund set up. It can be seen at helpflightattendantcrew@blogspot.comEvery penny counts!
These flight attendants have a blog and a legal defense fund set up. It can be viewed at helpflightattendantcrew@blogspot.comEvery penny helps.
I'm really shocked by this...
On his marketing blog, Dr. Tantillo recently named US Airways a "brand winner" for attention to 'core brand essentials,' such as safety, for the competency of pilot and crew that were able to avoid disaster on the Hudson. http://blog.marketingdoctor.tv...
It would make good sense to leverage this attention that US Airways is currently getting to gain more publicity for these three flight attendants' situation.
I'm really shocked by this...
On his marketing blog, Dr. Tantillo recently named US Airways a "brand winner" for attention to 'core brand essentials,' such as safety, for the competency of pilot and crew that were able to avoid disaster on the Hudson. Tantillo's full post
It would make good sense to leverage this attention that US Airways is currently getting to gain more publicity for these three flight attendants' situation.
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