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janet 06/22/2009 9:49:00 AM
I agree with everything else you just said. Maybe we are not so far apart in our doctrinal views�Peace and Grace to you.
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http://www.watches-space.com
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vikassinghania 05/13/2009 8:58:00 PM
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Anonymous 02/20/2009 2:26:00 AM
Wicca was recently recognized as a LEGITIMATE religion by the Defense Department. $cientology enjoys no such distinction.
PROVE ME WRONG. I never tried to sell a "stress test" or a Bible. $cientologists are ALWAYS on the make and they abuse the supposed freedoms which ^THIS person above says they defend.
I personally have NEVER met, seen, head of, read of, ANY $cientologist who has EVER enlisted in the military. I have NEVER heard much less of one SERVING in the military. Generally, anecdotal evidence tends to indicate that the ONLY places $cientologists "volunteer" for anything, is when they use their "Voluteer Minster" program as a vehicle for cock blocking doctors and licensed mental health practitioners from properly serving disaster victims.
This exploitation and unproved assertion by the person above who claims to be BOTH "in the military" AND "a $cientologist," is highly suspect.
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS
NOT $CIENTOLOGY
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Lost Raven 02/19/2009 8:27:00 PM
You say that L. Ron Hubbard's Religion is bad, yet you cast the first stone. We live in a country the was founded on freedom of religion yet we get approuched by people "trying to save our soul". My sould is fine right where its at...in the arms of the Gods and Goddesses. Thats right i am Wiccan, and i served in the Army with 15 months in Iraq. "Good Christains" don't live by what Jesus said...Love thy neighbor. They try to save our soul from damnation...We are happy with our chosen faith wether it be Scentology or Worshpping out car. We are free to worship any way we damn well please. You say its a "cult" well webster's dictionary says that a cult is a mass gathering of people in worship...That means EVERY religion out there can be classified a cult. I just wish you people would stop hounding the minority religion and LIVE YOUR OWN!!!
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Unanimous 02/19/2009 4:53:00 AM
"the IRS reversed its decision, granting tax-exempt status to all Scientology churches (there are 153 of them around the globe)" says the article. Yet if you google maps for "Scientology" you get thousands of locations. Allow me to gently point out that your peas are not in a row, probably because you are fondling them.
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Anonymous 02/19/2009 4:27:00 AM
The person who said the following three times in a row for "satirical" (?) emphasis...
"Unless you've been living under a rock, or have brain washed into this cult, you'd know that Scientology is a criminal scam. I wouldn't want a shrine for these cake-bearing lunatics in my neighborhood. Plus, half of them are into things like gerbiling. Keep these Scilon freaks, their cake, "Dianetics," and their gerbils away from your children!"
May well have been a Scientologist attempting to discredit Anonymous. Historically such juvenile comments, as well as all undocumented, likely self-inflicted "bomb threats," are a METHOD in madness and nothing more.
Designed to make the other side's argument look weak by displaying stupidity and insults rather than continuing to reliably steer all attempts at such diversion calmly back to the topic at hand.
Scientology is a criminal enterprise, operating a cult, masquerading as a religion. Do the residents of Camelback really want what is DEMONSTRABLY such a "highly questionable" organization with such a clearly demonstrable history of a whole litany of types and levels of abuse from harassment to tortious negligent homicides for which they have most always settled out of court in sealed records.
If you prefer financial compensation over the life of your child, then do nothing. You have the right to choose, but you are being forced by Scientology to make the choice. Their hope is that you will fall into the "religious hate speak, we're for HUMAN RIGHTS!" diversionary tactic and forget they've killed long enough for them to gain a toehold in your community by acting as a group as though they have institutional borderline personality disorder.
To say Scientologists are "nobody's friend," is to belie the reality that so long as you have $'s and are within arm's reach, they've got a course to sell YOU! until that is you are old and bankrupt, and then they abandon you.
The facts. ARM YOURSELVES WITH THEM.
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Mortimer Felchworthy 02/19/2009 4:15:00 AM
Unless you've been living under a rock, or have brain washed into this cult, you'd know that Scientology is a criminal scam. I wouldn't want a shrine for these cake-bearing lunatics in my neighborhood. Plus, half of them are into things like gerbiling. Keep these Scilon freaks, their cake, "Dianetics," and their gerbils away from your children!
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Mortimer Felchworthy 02/19/2009 4:15:00 AM
Unless you've been living under a rock, or have brain washed into this cult, you'd know that Scientology is a criminal scam. I wouldn't want a shrine for these cake-bearing lunatics in my neighborhood. Plus, half of them are into things like gerbiling. Keep these Scilon freaks, their cake, "Dianetics," and their gerbils away from your children!
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Beth Soosman 02/19/2009 3:25:00 AM
Scientology is a "church" which believes there is no creator. That is one of the "secrets" you have to pay a few hundred thousand to find out, in this brain washing cult.
Maybe they'll set up a used cigarette butt display in this "sacred" house -- Hubbard was a chain smoker -- since he claimed cigarettes were good for you and freed the body of radiation.
Bravo for this refreshingly comprehensive article, but neighbors of this House of Xenu should read the entire detailed, well-documented history of Hubbard and his group of loons, in Russell Miller's THE BAREFACED MESSIAH, available free on the web at the clambake website.
It is especially telling that Scientologists don't have a clue that Dianetics was written before Hubbard lived in that house. They don't know a damned thing about the history of their own "religion," except what is necessary to mislead, lie, and coerce their way through life to Keep Scientology Working. And what do they work at? Making money! Everything else is a false front to use as cover for their scam.
Some members are no doubt directed to make token efforts for Toys-for-Tots, but unlike other religious organizations, this cult does not hand out meals, help the homeless, or do anything of substance to help the communities in which they ply their absurd scam. Their vast wealth is used to bribe governments and police departments, and anything else which can Keep Scientology Working. Most Scientologists are fairly harmless as individuals, but as a fake religion, they are awesome as money-sucking leeches, and are good at brainwashing gullible, and sometimes vulnerable people. If you have them around, educate yourself about Scientology and warn others of how they operate. Don't try to make too much sense of Scientology or the brainwashed people who are members.
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mark 02/19/2009 1:43:00 AM
Well Done! What a wonderfully written piece. I"m sorry that I haven't read more of the authors work...
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Anonymous 02/12/2009 3:06:00 AM
"Madison" said... "they will be the first to tell you that Scientologists have a strict "no dissing other religions policy".they will be the first to tell you that Scientologists have a strict "no dissing other religions policy"."
Here, let me fix that for you...
"they will be the first to TELL YOU PUBLICLY that $cientologists hae a strict "no dissing other religions policy" on the public side of their 'church.' On the inside though, everything but $cientology is an alien implant which has to be exorcised with "auditing." They are ALWAYS the first to tell you one thing, while playing hide the hamster with the actual facts."
There, fix't for you.
Wow, near 4 days after the article's done, and still $cientologists and apologists are showing up to blame the other religions and people in the neighborhood, while at the same time citing "I am not a $cientologist but..." This article plus the Glosslip article irrefutably linking all that Tom Cruise is, was, or ever does or will be, and this article have stirred up a hornet's nest of $cientological backlash!
Hitting closer and closer to home, eh Mr. Miscavige. We'll see you all at the next protest. Be sure and bring lots more videos about drug rehab so we can explain the duality of man $cilontology style to the rest of Phoenix as they walk by laughing about the fact that $cientologists are far better at advertising than any other single thing. Rip off artists and hucksters, and their fans... The Cult of $cilontololligy.
Keep posting and telling us how you really feel. It's how the protest movement got as far as it already did; lying $cientologists who couldn't keep their mouths shut and wait for things to blow over. Lies only work when people aren't listening and watching like hawks. Guess what, you've attracted a whole flock of birds of prey, and we're smelling blood.
Stop lying; stop trying to get special privileges; stop fucking up people's lives; stop bankrupting and killing people; stop practicing medicine, psychiatry (bad), and a host of other professions without a license; stop pretending your pro human rights when your faith clearly believes in racism, eugenics, homophobia, strict heterosexuality on pain of being "put away quietly and without remorse," and a HOST of other fascist beliefs that could lead to fascism, and then MAYBE we might listen.
My bet is we'll have to reduce the corporation known as the 'church' of $cientology to institutional rubble before any of that stops though. That's ok, we've got time.
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Madison 02/12/2009 1:57:00 AM
I was highly annoyed at the attitues of the neighbors in your Scientology article. These people are oozing ignorance. I have had the pleasure of knowing Marlyse and Russell for several years and they will be the first to tell you that Scientologists have a strict "no dissing other religions policy". It would be nice if us Bible-thumpers would take a page out of their book and practice a little religious tollerance.
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V 02/10/2009 5:26:00 PM
Being that I have visted this house some years back, not really by choice but by the insistance of a former employer, I can say that it was at the time innudated by Scientology stuff and it was at the time like a shrine to their founder. It might not be so much anymore but of course you couldn't pay me to go back there to find out.
Whether it stems from a dislike of practices of the "religion" or concern for general public safety, I believe that the residents in the area have every right to be concerned with what goes on in their neighborhood. Of course, I would feel the same way if someone in my neighboorhood decided to open up a Sunday school or bible study and cover it by calling it a "house party". Let homes be homes and church activities go on in buildings that were built for that reason. After all if they have these big fantastic buildings for the practice of their "religion", why bother to try and make one home a shrine to a long dead man? Set up their museum to him on their own properties which by comments in this article seem numerous and vast and worship him and his life there.
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Anonymous 02/09/2009 11:58:00 PM
Virginia said, "
I would also like to mention this is a free country, that is why we all live here and love it. To show this kind of prejudice against this group is very hypocritical.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
----
Here's the question, which people "living in glass houses" are you pointing to? Neighbors justifiably concerned that a cult with a criminal history is trying to infiltrate their neighborhood, or $cientologists? I note that you pointed out "I'm not a $cientologist but," and yet then went on to immediately imply that people voicing concerns were in fact hiding things themselves. Precisely what gives you the right to say such a thing? Do you have knowledge of things about the people in that neighborhood, and if so how did you come to acquire it?
I'm a bit confused, you say you aren't a $cientologist and yet you act just like one. I'm guessing the glass house you were referring to must have been "Hubbard House," cause Lady it's pretty clear you don't know WTF you're talking about.
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Amiee 02/09/2009 8:51:00 PM
Hi Amanda, I'm Amiee.
I'm sure the other LA residents would agree 100% with you.
This city council video available on Youtube gives us a different story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFL3MAiJ0I8
The local news even covered it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtmbIHa1QqA
I can understand why some residents are worried. Not that I can excuse all of their actions, but what is there isn't 100% prejudice. It's a deeply rooted, and founded concern for their neighborhood.
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A non a moose 02/09/2009 7:58:00 PM
Again, we don't have to read a book when court documents and actions of Scientology tell us the whole story. Check out...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)
www.xenu.net
We know what the CoS does, there is no use in hiding it. we also know that CoS uses it staff to come on web boards and defend their religion by deflecting blame and changing the subject. They call people who do not support CoS bigots and prejudice and sight religious freedom, forgetting that the right to speak freely against something is a right we have as well.
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Amanda 02/09/2009 5:09:00 PM
A very interesting article... I have something to say about it. It sounds more like they are interested in bashing Scientology than anything else. I know many people, Scientologists and non-Scientologists that have toured the house and loved what they say, a nice, remodeled version of a home that L. Ron Hubbard had lived in while he did some of his research... nothing weird at all!
I also know many Scientologists myself and I would have to say that they are not cultists, not even in the slightest... it's a shameful thing that this was even written; and it's flat out NOT TRUE. I am personally insulted that you would even start to paint a picture of them in that way.
On top of that, I live in Los Angeles where Scientology is booming and has a lot of organizations... but as they put it "mafia type tactics?" are you kidding me??? There is nothing of this sort, nothing but good-will type activities, support and help for the community; I see them trying to help others... if you don�t want to do it fine. That's your choice and I wouldn�t be afraid of someone "making you change your religion" it is and always will be your choice! I would say that they picture painted by this article is definitely one-sided, written by someone who personally felt it would be fun to trash or attack a very positive and well-intentioned group. I would question THEIR intentions more than anything!
I can understand the concerns of the local neighborhood on not wanting their area to become a commercial area. But hey, it states right there from one neighbor... all the live-in manager has brought to her was coffee cake! Why can't she be my neighbor?!
Give it a break and read a book on Scientology if you have questions... I wouldn�t listen to this type of article if you want to find out what it's about. That would be like asking a racist what he thought about another race... it's ridiculous and we all already know what answer you would get; not one that would be correct, but it would be tainted with lies and false information.
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Virginia Curry 02/09/2009 1:39:00 PM
I took an art group on a tour of this facility, as L. Ron Hubbard was a huge supporter of the arts, photography and writing.
The tour was great; the house great, Marlyse Brock was an excellent tour guide, very informative. There was plenty of parking on the property; She supplied us with cookies, juice, coffee and tea.
Besides mentioning the fact, that Mr. Hubbard was the founder of Scientology we were never approached to attend a meeting, given no literature or any other type of propaganda that made our group feel obligated to be involved with the "religious" beliefs of any body on site at this property.
I think the neighbors should be grateful there is a little bit of history in their neighborhood and that the property is kept in such great condition. Some of the neighbors ought to try and keep up their property as well as this facility does.
I would also like to mention this is a free country, that is why we all live here and love it. To show this kind of prejudice against this group is very hypocritical.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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Anonymous 02/09/2009 9:47:00 AM
Hey PHX Scientologists...
Are your stats crashing so much that you have to break into our vehicle and steal your cult propaganda back after the uninterested public regifts it to us for recycling? Pretty pathetic if you ask me.
Fair warning, messing with vehicles is making this personal. I would perfer that neither of us resort to tactics like this; OT Committee please keep your members ethics within check. Further infractions will be documented and exposed to public scrutiny.
Wogs run this.
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Anonymous 02/08/2009 5:57:00 PM
Molly from Phoenix said, "... At no time did we ever get asked for money for ANYTHING (including using the space). At no time did we ever get asked to buy anything. Most of the artists, musicians and poets were not Scientologists. They were of many different faiths and practices. The commonality was art."
Perhaps people would be better off using Google to find how "acting classes" are used in Hollywood as a vector for recruiting young and vulnerable actors? I think maybe that's probably a good thing for them to do first before accepting your word for it, I mean after all.. it's how they recruited John Travolta, Kirstie Allie, and Tom Cruise among a host of others.
When a $cientologist says "we didn't recruit" they ALWAYS omit the words OVERTLY. $cientology by psychotic design is built around two lives: the public life external to the 'church' based literally around "PR" (yes, that's right, public relations as applied to individual behavior in order to promote a particular over message designed to look both useful and harmless. Then there's the COVERT mission which is "make money, make more money, make others make more money for you," AND THAT IS A FUCKING QUOTE FROM THEIR BIBLES! the "Hubbard Communications Office" marching orders AND the taped lectures of Hubbard.
That covert identity is for "within the church" or "amongst friends" (to be read fellow $cilons) and is ALL about "stats" and recruiting and the financial bottom line, NOTHING more. These "services" that involve no recruiting are a joke, and all the community need do is take out a small ad in the New Times or to call on local protesters at the next First Fridays, to pass the word for more information / EVIDENCE to present to the city council or in court, to demonstrate similar efforts by $cientologists in Hollywood are for the specifically intended purpose of recruitment, particularly amongst "artists."
"Hubbard House," from what is being said by Molly, has become a vehicle for a particular type / subset of $cilontological recruitment... those in the arts. The very subject matter chosen for their self-defense is a RED FLAG which can be historically demonstrated to lead down a path of neighborhood blight and destruction.
Camelback, just ask. There are MANY professional grade researchers worldwide working on this issue and tracing the web that is $cientology. The reason they're not already suing the shit out of you until you folks submit is that they've been bled of money and members for the last twelve months while evidence is gathered.
Take it to the city council; restrict non-resident parking on your street for a start. There's literally ZERO chance of their winning the fight to turn a zoned single family dwelling into the circus they wish to use it for, IF you reach out to protesters and the support base behind them.
$cilons created their own evidence against themselves when they start talking about places to meet, arts, and "we're not recruiting." That's a RED HERRING and in fact it's just the opposite. It can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that history indicates this is but the first step in a repeating pattern of colonization and assimilation of a residential neighborhood. Time to get a lawyer and to get the dox together.
Good luck $cilons. Can you say, "Say NO to the Hubbard House $cilebrity Center for the Arts!" FLUNK! Try a new tactic.
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Anonymous 02/08/2009 6:09:00 AM
Mr. Bennett,
Do you have the phone number to the person that's supposed to be paying me to protest? It seems you know more about this subject than I do. By my count I'm out approx. $1000 for my time (taking into consideration the $50/day story we heard from the nice folks at Quiznos). To think, I've been protesting for a year now for absolutely no money, but only out of concern for people's well being in a malicious organization.
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Heather 02/08/2009 2:16:00 AM
Dear Chris from Phoenix,
You appear to have quoted a document about the termination of the criminal case in the Lisa MacPherson matter. But, without a source citation, we can't evaluate that quotation for ourselves. And I like to evaluate everything I read on the internet.
For example, one of the things I read on the internet just now comes from the official website of the Uniformed Fire Officers Association, FDNY branch. So, when they say that the guy who gave the Volunteer Ministers their "Medal of Valor" was a fraud, it carries a lot of weight, you know?
Check it for yourself: item 7 in the minutes - http://www.ufoa.org/Prez/2005/GMM0405.htm
Oh, and when you are digging out the authoritative court documentation about the finalisation of the criminal case in the McPherson matter, be sure and also pull out the records showing Scientology settled with the McPherson family, would you?
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San 02/07/2009 9:55:00 PM
Oh Richard, many, many anon HAVE read Dianetics.
You guys keep using that like reading it is supposed to magically make every terrible thing that's happened within the Scientology organization all better.
And the only vitriol I ever see comes from Scientologists themselves. With every sign we've made encouraging people to find out the facts, Scientologists have made unfound and slanderous remarks in attempt to smear our character.
The only cowardice I saw came from a Scientoligist, last night, who physically pushed a single protester on public property and tried to steal his sign until the cops showed up and told him to knock it off.
If becoming someone who blindly follows, is forced to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars regardless of income for religious texts, and personally attacks and smears people I don't know(and in the case of headset Vince, smear your very own people), is what it is to be a Scientologist, count me out.
Anyone willing to talk to us will know right away that what we're doing isn't based on hate. We've never followed you home, we've never personally attacked or placed blame on any one of you. We've tried very hard to talk politely and reasonably with church members and only once were we able to get that, and that was on the day the lady who is usually in charge wasn't there to cut us off and treat the member like a child needing supervision. You're not allowed to talk to us, unless you're attacking us. On a few occasions we've come across your booths at malls or stores and have talked with those at the table, having pleasant conversation and asking questions, knowing that if the scientologists knew who we were the friendliness would immediately disappear, despite our sincerity.
I know you're taught that anyone with doubts about Scientology must have something terribly wrong with them, or are part of some psychiatry conspiracy, but once you realize that we're honest, ordinary people like you, with valid concerns, maybe then we'll be able to talk on the level. :)
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Anonymous 02/07/2009 9:45:00 PM
To say the house is about Hubbard and separate from the "church" is to lie, pure and simple. The ownership alone demonstrates the beginning nature of the lie, but the attempt to disconnect Hubbard from the "church" in some respects could be seen, coming from a $cientologist, as either "an acceptable lie" OR an offense which could get them thrown out of the "church."
Which is it to you Mr. Bennett? You say you're a "public" for decades, how does it feel to be brought to awareness about your "church" openly lying about receiving awards for services during 9/11 which were at best another fraud? Do you find this offensive to your sensibility as a $cientologist and a member of your church who is by your own dogma responsible for the collective actions of $cientology worldwide, or do you see that as just another "acceptable lie" to 'church' membership to whip up the fervor and to sell more product?
You want to be respected for things like not parking on the grass, well WOW! I am impressed. Now, let's get back to the discussion regarding how the defense offered here is actually an offense, accusing people in the neighborhood, accusing mystical "sources" of false information that's been shown here quite clearly to be true, all with references and links provided.
"Always attack, never defend." From your words sir, I can believe you are a veteran $cientologist. Your own members here are insisting the house is a "museum," while you insist it is nothing but a house. Which is it sir, I put it to you? Americans, most particularly Phoenicians, would like to know! The documents and emails sent out by your own 'church' indicate that you are lying, or is that merely "telling acceptable untruths?"
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Rathsamiar 02/07/2009 9:39:00 PM
"People with very small and/or closed minds will not be able to observe that Scientology comprises parishoners from every sector of every religion and excludes no one. There is no reason to "convert" anyone to Scientology as it already encompasses all religions and is probably the only religion around that is truly ALL-denominational. Scientology is there to help any who would care to have assistance in any facet of their life and would cover virtually any area."
I can't even begin to express the disgust that I have with this regularly espoused statement. Scientologists the world over go on about how you can be practicing another religion, and still be in Scientology. How, pray tell, can the Church of Scientology be a religion, with a tax-exempt status, and yet claim that a person can continue practicing their own original religion at the same time? I've never heard of a Hindu Muslim or a Christian Jew. And, as par the course, by the time a Scientologist has coughed up the $360,000 to get to OT3, they'll be told, among other things, that all religions are simply an old, false memory implanted in their mind. And yet they're accepting of all other religions? Simply another lie.
"The people who cower in the background, behind masks, such as the "anonymous" people do, are basically cowards who are paid to protest Scientology. This was stated from one of the anonymous people at one of their protests."
To address this, we are not paid. The only time this has ever been said at a protest was back during the May '08 protest when photographers, assumably PIs employed by the Church, were taking photographs of Anonymous protests from the Quizno's across the street, when the Church was at their 7th St. and Indian School location. Later that afternoon we spoke with the employees, (as Quizno's was the regular place to get lunch after protests, considering the proximity, so the employees knew us) and they said that the men told them that we were being paid $50 a day by psychiatrists to protest the Church.
We've heard the same lie espoused at protests during First Friday when the Church sets up their booth to trick new people into joining, and the only time we've ever said anything about being paid is in a joking manner.
Considering many of us are brokish, college students, don't you think that if we were being paid $50 a day, we'd be out there a whole lot more than once a month?
We're there because WE CARE.
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Jim Bennett 02/07/2009 9:14:00 PM
I find this all very suspicious that these neighbors have such "negative" attitudes about Scientology and wonder who has fed them the misinformation about the subject? As a member of Scientology since 1969 and someone who is not a foreigner and who has lived in Phoenix since 1948, I am just amazed and dumb-founded about all of this. I can state without reservation that this "House" makes no attempt to convert anyone to Scientology, sells no product, takes in no money for anything and in fact is simply a place where someone can go who would like to know more about Mr. Hubbard...and NOT the Church of Scientology.
L. Ron Hubbard is responsible for much more than Dianetics and Scientology. He has created the most effect method for drug rehabilitation, criminal reform and the creation of an effective method of study that is known throughout the world. People with very small and/or closed minds will not be able to observe that Scientology comprises parishoners from every sector of every religion and excludes no one. There is no reason to "convert" anyone to Scientology as it already encompasses all religions and is probably the only religion around that is truly ALL-denominational. Scientology is there to help any who would care to have assistance in any facet of their life and would cover virtually any area.
The people who cower in the background, behind masks, such as the "anonymous" people do, are basically cowards who are paid to protest Scientology. This was stated from one of the anonymous people at one of their protests.
Personally, I was thrilled when I found out that this house was where Mr. Hubbard came up with the premise, and proved, that man was in fact a spiritual being. This discovery alone is noteworthy. I also know that the state-ment about the buses taking groups of people to the L. Ron Hubbard "house" is also fiction as my wife has taken several groups of people to the house for a tour and it was done in our personal car. That car was parked in the back of the house. I must admit that at our last Christmas party, I had to park out in front of the house because the parking area inside was already full. If I offended anyone, I apologize. It was not meant to upset anyone. And I believe that we should probably get a lynch mob together and take Marlyse out into the street and "hang her from a telephone pole" for doing something so dastardly as to take coffee cake to the neighbors. What a heinous crime! She should be ashamed of herself.
We do have a Church downtown on 3rd Street & Roosevelt that is for Church activities. The L. Ron Hubbard House has no such purpose or use and will not ever have. It is a place for anyone to go to see where our Founder lived when he discovered the spiritual nature of Man. This is similar to other religions where they have Mecca, Jerusalem, etc. I would guess those religions ran into the same narrow minds as well. There will, unfortunately, always be people who refuse to see beyond their own narrow minds. Too bad!
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Jamie Greenblatt 02/07/2009 7:52:00 PM
Dianetics is basically the biggest fraudulent thing that called itself something of a science or a religion. Its nothing but ramblings, no wonder why some people called it the most non-coherent thing since the invention of the printing press more than 500 years ago.
I have a problem with people saying that Dianetics works because it doesn't. There are passages in the book that is basically homophobic such as on page 125.
"One of the psychosomatic illnesses one would least expect to find as a psychosomatic affair is the illness of sexual perversion" - Hubbard, Dianetics, MSOMH (Copyright 2007); pg 125 para 2
"The sexual pervert (and by this term Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in Dynamic Two [The Creation Dynamic] such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc., and all down the catalog of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically.
- Hubbard Dianetics, MSOMH (Copyright 2007); pg 125 para 3
After finishing reading that piece of crap, I threw it into the Ocean so nobody else have to see what Scientologist call miraculous. Its worthless basically. No wonder why the Mental Health Community rejected Hubbard. The only way for him to make this useless piece of garbage work was to create a phony religion. Basically it all comes down to this: I don't want to read any books that basically states that they want to kill all the Gays like how Nazi's killed the Jews.
To Scientologists: Also you can go to 13heathens on youtube (youtube.com/13heathens) to see his argumentation about Dianetics and other Scientology items(and see how it doesnt work).
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Celina 02/07/2009 7:02:00 PM
As an ex-Scientologist, I can assure you that the purchase of the old Hubbard house in Camelback neighborhood has two purposes:
(1) as a donation cash-cow for getting donations from Scientologists (and others) to filter up to the highest levels of Scientology and into their financial "black hole", and
(2) to promote Scientology and Hubbard "goodwill" in the community, to make the names of Hubbard/Scientology seem more favorable and more mainstream to others, and to get more recruits for Scientology.
For both (1) & (2) above, the house needs to be open to visitors as a museum. It was never intended to be "just a house"; there would be no purpose in spending any dollars on that.
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imominous 02/07/2009 6:24:00 PM
Phoenix should ask themselves the same question Hubbard's birthplace, Tilden Nebraska, asked when the "Friends of Hubbard" came to town seeking to install a park in L. Ron Hubbard's honor. It's quite an amusing story:
http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/battlefield-tilden-park.htm
Why would any city wish to glorify the memory of a college dropout, drug abusing bigamist? Here is a man who lied about his incompetent military service during WWII, lied about earning medals, lied about being wounded, lied about curing his wounds with Dianetics techniques.
Bigamist.
Drug addict.
Alcoholic.
Pathological liar.
Phony war hero.
Megalomaniac.
Yeah, that's the kind of guy I would want my city to honor.
When the Scientologists tried to get a "L. Ron Hubbard Day" declared in neighboring National City, that flew like a lead balloon. It plummeted so hard it left a crater.
Follow Tilden's example, Phoenix. Barry Goldwater, now there is a man who deserves honor.
L. Ron Hubbard deserves to be disposed of in the dustbin of history.
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Anonymous 02/07/2009 5:27:00 PM
"Missing from all the criticism is any indication that Dianetics doesn't work. It, in fact, does work as millions of people around the world have discovered for themselves.
And as far as Anonymous goes, hiding is still hiding. It's much easier to spew hate and vitriol when you do it in secret. Mr. Hubbard had the courage to put his name on what he wrote. You might want to consider following his example."
For one, and I'm not sure how many times it's been stated and restated in these comments, but I'm going to restate it again, in hopes that it's seen.
Anonymous' quarrel is NOT over beliefs. If Dianetics works for you, great. Our quarrel is with the way the Church cavalierly goes about violating the human rights of members and critics. If Fair Game didn't exist, if disconnection wasn't an issue, if the Sea Org wasn't practicing human slavery, if the Church didn't actively engage in censorship, if all the other many, EVIDENCED crimes had not occured, we wouldn't be here.
As far as being Anonymous itself, I would love to go by my real name. But the practices of your Church prevents me. I don't want my name to be slandered with lies that are created for the sole purpose of driving me away. I don't want to be followed by PIs trying to intimidate me. I have every right to protest and speak out against the crimes of the Church, and if the Church can't respect me enough to not follow me home, I have no problem going Anonymous and preventing their shenanigans.
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Anonymous 02/07/2009 4:45:00 PM
The reason "Dianetics" was on the best seller list as long as it was is simple. Hubbard ordered the members of $cientology to go to the local book seller and to buy multiple copies of the book from retailers for years on end. $cientologists bought their OWN books, over and over again, until they pushed Hubbard onto the list and kept him there. Anybody whose willing to screw with statistics and as a $cilons bankroll can afford 10 million books, amirite? I mean after all, the 'church' self-publishes and 90% of the cover price is profit, amirite?
You people are ridiculous. Do you honestly think, given the complete inability to refute the historic record, that anyone is going to go buy ANYTHING you recommend? Get real. People would rather have a sexually transmitted disease than $cientologists in their neighborhoods.
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Richard Haworth 02/07/2009 2:42:00 PM
Wow, where to begin?
Having read the New Times article and most of the comments let me start by saying to the reporter that you certainly covered both sides of the waterfront in your story. But, a correction please.
Dianetics was not written in Phoenix. Other books by Mr. Hubbard were but Dianetics' publication in 1950 preceeded Mr. Hubbard's appearance in Phoenix by several years.
I guess my best advice to anyone reading all this is instead of trying to sort through all the accusations and counter accusations just pick up a copy of Dianetics or Fundamentals of Thought, read it and decide for yourself. You can find them in bookstores and libraries almost anywhere.
There must be some reason that Dianetics was on the New York Times best seller list twice. Get a copy, sit down in a comfortable chair some evening and find out for your self.
Missing from all the criticism is any indication that Dianetics doesn't work. It, in fact, does work as millions of people around the world have discovered for themselves.
And as far as Anonymous goes, hiding is still hiding. It's much easier to spew hate and vitriol when you do it in secret. Mr. Hubbard had the courage to put his name on what he wrote. You might want to consider following his example.
Yes, I am a Scientologist and have been going on 40 years. Those many years ago I took the time to find out for myself and my life has been the better for it. I urge you to do the same.
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Richard Haworth 02/07/2009 2:41:00 PM
Wow, where to begin?
Having read the New Times article and most of the comments let me start by saying to the reporter that you certainly covered both sides of the waterfront in your story. But, a correction please.
Dianetics was not written in Phoenix. Other books by Mr. Hubbard were but Dianetics' publication in 1950 preceeded Mr. Hubbard's appearance in Phoenix by several years.
I guess my best advice to anyone reading all this is instead of trying to sort through all the accusations and counter accusations just pick up a copy of Dianetics or Fundamentals of Thought, read it and decide for yourself. You can find them in bookstores and libraries almost anywhere.
There must be some reason that Dianetics was on the New York Times best seller list twice. Get a copy, sit down in a comfortable chair some evening and find out for your self.
Missing from all the criticism is any indication that Dianetics doesn't work. It, in fact, does work as millions of people around the world have discovered for themselves.
And as far as Anonymous goes, hiding is still hiding. It's much easier to spew hate and vitriol when you do it in secret. Mr. Hubbard had the courage to put his name on what he wrote. You might want to consider following his example.
Yes, I am a Scientologist and have been going on 40 years. Those many years ago I took the time to find out for myself and my life has been the better for it. I urge you to do the same.
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Rachel Felix 02/07/2009 2:15:00 PM
They are not doing it right if there is not a large assortment of multi-colored paisley ascots hanging in the closet.
And why doesn't Tom Cruise and John Travolta wear the pretentious ascot to honor their god?
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Anonymous 02/07/2009 7:06:00 AM
Chris said, "Dont just repeat this junk you're getting from those couple of web sites. They are all from the same handful of people. You dont know anything about them or what their agenda is. You are just being used as a pawn."
"Dude," who is you think is making the phone calls, writing the letters, calling the people who have sued before, inquired directly of school boards who have thrown Applied Scholastics the HELL out of their curricula, VM's the hell off the VA Tech campus... I'm tired, and you're a $cientologist. The two don't mix well, so I'm going to cut this short.
I have first hand knowledge regarding the response of the NYFD to the claims made by $cientology. They were virtually identical to the response made by NASA to the $cientology video which claimed that Tom Cruise had virtually single handedly saved the space program from imminent failure by getting the space program to adopt Hubbard's insanity.
Both the NYFD, and NASA, and Coca Cola, and 7/11, and every other claimed sponsor or ally has turned out to be a complete and abject lie each and every time your group's claims have been fact checked. EVERY TIME! How can you deny the factual record of history? This isn't 2004 and everybody still buying into the idea that you folks saved people, hell it's not even 9/11 when Fox suddenly has to announce a retraction the the number they thought was for a governmental mental health assistance hotline they'd been running in their sidebar was in fact a number to the 'church' of $cientology that had been misrepresented.
Just how much more do you wish to continue to lie in the face of the historic record? Why? What is your motivation? How can you refute the historic record? This is not a case of "the victors rewriting history to suit themselves," but of $cientology engaging in an Orwellian level of newspeak and "Ministry of Truth" tactics of revisionism that inflate their societal contribution in a fraudulent, now exposed, attempt to make their actual influence far greater than their actual basis of public support.
None of what you have offered has been factually correct in the slightest. In each case your story has conveniently ended before explaining how these "awards" and these "win statements" came to be or who gave them. We've tracked down all your "letter of commendation" from various legislatures and dissected their worth (none, virtually anyone can get them for the price of a letter to a state office holder come to find out), and in many cases the "honors" are simply fake; invented by $cientology to exploit tragedy at an opportune moment where everyone was otherwise occupied, accompanied by the incredible hubris of thinking no one would follow up once the actual professionals were done trying to clean up the messes of both the terrorists AND the $cientologists.
Get your facts straight. I've invested a great deal of time investigating mine before saying a single thing about my conclusions. Now is the time to speak out, and every time a $cientologists lies in a public forum to contradict them with historic truth not revisionist fantasy designed to manipulate for the purpose of public relations as laid out by a schizoaffective "messiah" whose orders more resemble a mindlessly mechanistic business plan with a stated goal of world domination, whether the world wants it or not.
The world is resisting; actively! Get used to it.
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Chris 02/07/2009 6:48:00 AM
Criminal case review
Wood�s review caused the review and dismissal of the Lisa McPherson�s death criminal case.[43] The review was done by assistant State Attorney Douglas Crow and is outlined in the 31 page memo that he sent to State Attorney Bernie McCabe recommending to drop the criminal case against the Church of Scientology.[27]
The initial autopsy
Crow stated that there were credibility issues with the original autopsy, including that had Wood signed the autopsy herself five months after Davis' departure, failed to examine tissue samples and did not consult clinical experts before reaching her conclusion. He also pointed out to other mistakes done by Wood like releasing the autopsy report on an active criminal case and going public on national media.[27]
Robert Davis' testimony
Medical examiner Robert Davis changed his testimony from 1997 deposition given in the civil case and to strongly disagree that Lisa was severely dehydrated. Also he made a series of accusations against the Medical Examiner's Office's handling of the case and questioned their motive. Davis stated that Wood was not present during the autopsy and did not consult him when she signed the autopsy.[27]
Destruction of evidence
Crow noted that the failure by Medical Examiner's Office to follow its own policies to preserve evidence, releasing the body for cremation before a cause of death had been determined and destroying Davis� autopsy notes will be used to attack Wood�s credibility.[27]
Wood's explanation of the autopsy changes
The primary reason Wood gave for changing her findings was her realization that the microscopic slides of the popliteal vein and the photographs of muscle tissue in the surrounding area provided evidence of trauma which could explain the thrombus formation. She could not explain why she had not seen this before.[27]
Crow was highly critical of Wood in his memo stating:
Her explanations concerning the reasoning behind the changes have been illogical and inconsistent. She vacillated in her conclusions even as she prepared the amended certificate. After talking to Joe Davis she executed a notarized change in the death certificate to accident and removed dehydration and bed rest as causative factors. She then reconsidered that decision and resolved to change the manner of death to homicide with dehydration listed as one of multiple factors and then again changed her mind the next morning, deciding to follow Joe Davis' initial advice.Douglas E. Crow
Crow also mentioned a unique set of circumstances that put Wood under tremendous pressure and might have impacted the quality of her judgment. These being:
Wood�s appearance on national television left her more vulnerable to litigation and committed her to a forensic position that would make any modification professionally embarrassing.
The fact that Robert Davis, the forensic examiner that actually did the autopsy, was critical of her conclusions.
The defense suggestion that if forced to litigate it would reveal information extremely damaging to Wood's office and her career.
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Chris 02/07/2009 6:34:00 AM
In a testimony Minton spoke against Ken Dandar, the attorney representing Lisa McPherson wrongful death lawsuit against the Church of Scientology.[11] In a 26-page affidavit, Minton stated that Tampa attorney Ken Dandar asked him to lie, drew up false court records for him to sign and urged him to generate bad publicity for the Church of Scientology to prejudice potential jurors in the McPherson wrongful death case as Scientology tries to get the wrongful death case dismissed on grounds of serious misconduct by Ken Dandar and his client.[12] Minton's affidavit gave new details about how involved Minton was in the wrongful death case from the start, stating that he gave Dandar more than $2 million to finance the case and paying witnesses to testify against the church.[12] Dandar took the witness stand to explain the origin of Swiss bank checks totaling $750,000 that Minton allegedly gave him.[12] Minton also testified about two financial arrangements in which $800,000 of his money was transferred from Europe to the Lisa McPherson Trust and that he had kept a portion of that money because he wanted to hide the source of the Trusts funding from the Church of Scientology.[13]
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Chris 02/07/2009 6:31:00 AM
Dude, nevermind. You only see what you want to see. You totally ignored my post. What you said about the VM's was just not true. You're reading rumors and junk on the internet and accepting that which supports your hate. Just because something fits your argument doesnt mean it's true. Thats not what makes something true. Things are true because they are true. To see the truth you have to take off your blinders and actually look at something. Dont just repeat this junk you're getting from those couple of web sites. They are all from the same handful of people. You dont know anything about them or what their agenda is. You are just being used as a pawn.
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Anonymous 02/07/2009 6:07:00 AM
And by the way, as for that "NY Fire Department Medal of Valor" you're pulling out of your .... go here and read this, you lying sack...
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/07/19/18517551.php
Scientology Cult Fraudulently Claims "Medal of Valor" from New York Fire Department
"The Scientology cult loudly boasts that after 9/11, its "Volunteer Ministers" were awarded the Fire Department of New York's highest honor, the "Medal of Valor." This is not only a lie, but an insult to the memory all the brave firefighters who died in the line of duty and were awarded this Medal posthumously. Dozens of Scientology web site and blogs brazenly make this claim, in a continuing effort to legitimize their cult."
"Three years later in 2004, on the occasion of the Scientology cult opening a new headquarters in New York City, a Scientologist named Stephan Hittman made the following "proclamation":
+ + +
"In recognition of the humanitarian efforts of the Volunteer Ministers of the Church of Scientology, and the help they provided to members of the Fire Department of the City of New York, in keeping with the principles developed by L. Ron Hubbard; and
"WHEREAS: FDNY and the 911 PROGRAM recognize this unwavering commitment to firefighters, to paramedics, to other rescue workers, in keeping with our proudest traditions; and be it known,
"THEREFORE: That FDNY and the 911 PROGRAM officially recognize this dedicated service to the citizens of the City of New York, and hereby bestow upon L. Ron Hubbard and the Volunteer Ministers of the Church of Scientology, the FDNY and the 911 PROGRAM's Medal of Valor and 9�11 Service Award � on the occasion of the Grand Opening of the New York Church of Scientology."
+ + +
Not only is it preposterous that the Vulture Ministers would be honored in this way, and not the many agencies and organizations that actually helped people, but Hittman was not authorized to make such an award, or even any award, on behalf of the Fire Department of New York. He had a little administrative job. Hittman claimed to be an "Honorary Commissioner" of the Fire Department. This was a lie."
--------------
This has been thoroughly investigated, declaimed by the Fire Department AND the Fire Fighter's Union who have done all they can to warn fire fighters that the $cientology "detox" routine is nothing but bad science. Mr. Hittman, how appropriate for a $cientologist, is in fact a fraud and all one need do is Google him to see both his past and his present as he tries to turn tragedy into profit.
Learn the facts and stop spreading party line lies. It's been 12 months and thousands of man hours of research have gone into debunking virtually every claim made by $cientology in the last fifty years! Why continue to lie about something so patently false and so clearly harmful? What's your incentive to spread sociological poison and fear of empirically based medical practice? What's in it for you? What makes you fear modern medicine so?
"What are your crimes," in other words? Sound familiar? The whole world is asking, now it's time to consider either dissociating yourself from the abuses or to realize that the time to say "I was only following orders" or claiming no knowledge are fast ending. There is nothing there for you anymore; not money, and most especially not power. Discard all ambitions in terms of covert operation within the social system anymore. Finding the Co$ legal connection to the ownership of "Hubbard House" took less than 3 minutes. The days of hiding are over, why not come out of the closet?
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Anonymous 02/07/2009 5:52:00 AM
A religious zealot who takes his child off of anti-seizure medication, does not provide adequate supervision despite being a millionaire many times over, who lets his child die under at best "cloudy" circumstances, is far scarier than I. A $cientologist who thinks that Hubbard's "Bring Back to Life Rundown" works to resurrect the dead and therefore pauses to screw around trying to figure out whether to go to the nearest hospital or back to mainland America where $cientology doctors can be brought in to "handle" the situation, is about as scary as a crazy man with a bottle of acid running naked through the streets.
$cientology has a lot to answer for. Scary doesn't even begin to describe their activities and dogma, and the tactics of intimidation they themselves use, when assertively and aggressively used back against them, suddenly are "scary" and "hatred." I never hired a private investigator to follow a $cientologist. I never took a picture of a $cientologist in my life.
How come tonight one tried to take mine and I was only walking by and have never before been to a protest, or did they? The reality is that $cientologists are under strict instruction by "scripture" to always go on offense and "ALWAYS attack, never defend." Going "on offense" and calling what they do openly reprehensible and borderline illegal is indeed "scary" and "hateful" from their point of view.
Stating what is real is not "hateful." Stating that $cientology has both a past and present of abuse of legal process is not "hateful." Saying historically $cientologist make horrible neighbors who are prone to threatening those who oppose their desire for treatment as "special" for reasons apparent to no one but themselves, is not "hateful" it is HISTORY.
$cientology, threatens its neighbors including tenants of an Aussie Ministry of Defense contractor building and doesn't afraid of anything! What's not to liek, amirite?
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Chris 02/07/2009 5:33:00 AM
Thats just not true. Scientology VM's worked their asses off at ground zero. You should see some of the inverviews from fireman, police, officials thanking the VMs for their amazing work at ground zero. The VMs were given the NYFD Medal of Valor for their work there. You're spreading lies.
I might also point out that you're kind of hateful and scary. But that probably goes without saying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wPEvESwKs8
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Anonymous 02/07/2009 4:14:00 AM
$cilontology "Volunteer Ministers" showed up at 9/11 and Katrina and physically prevented people from receiving appropriate healthcare. They tried the same cock blocking at the Virginia Tech massacre and were thrown out on their asses.
The shame and stigma of the efforts of "Volunteer Ministers" trying to physically prevent people accessing emergency healthcare services will NEVER be forgotten by the world... EVERY! $cientology is not being "demonized," it is being judged and found wanting.
You people sicken the vast majority of those you encounter. The world is done with playing "make nice" and respecting the unfounded "scientific" claims of your half-assed bullshit and we're putting a stop to it. Demonstrate that your bullshit works EMPIRICALLY, or expect continued organized resistance until you are so utterly reduced as to be even more inconsequential than you already are.
We know what cult you're in, do not worry. We're the Internet and we're here to help.
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Tobe Daum 02/07/2009 2:03:00 AM
Historically, groups and their members have been "demonized"
to justify the discrimination against them.
It would be helpful to us all, in the midst of these challenging times, to practice respect and good will for one another. This is America.
The people involved in community service and activities which contribute to the welfare of others ,speak through their deeds. No disparaging remarks can erase that service.
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Jan 02/07/2009 2:02:00 AM
Sounds like there are some pretty wacky, border-line paranoid people in that neighborhood. Their intolerance says a lot more about them than it does about the group they are afraid of.
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Lil' Davey 02/07/2009 1:04:00 AM
The only people who would consider this a "landmark" are scientologists. No museum has a place in a residential neighborhood, least of all a museum dedicated to one of the greatest con artists of the 20th century. The locals are wise to keep an eye on what the scis are doing because if they succeed in getting the house set up, there will be a constant influx of scientologists from all over the country, and probably mounted cameras, and security thugs with cameras harassing locals.
I encourage the residents to check with the local government and do whatever they can to stop the cult from setting up shop in their neighborhood. Don't make the mistake that people in other cities like Clearwater, FL made.
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Mike 02/06/2009 11:00:00 PM
Again a one sided point of view from the New Times. It is always slanted to the negative. Can�t you simply report a story without throwing in your prejudice, innuendo and hatred? The L. Ron Hubbard House on Camelback is quite simply a landmark and is beautifully restored. I am proud to see this house preserved and historic landmarks held in high regard, something we Phoenicians and our news journalists are not well known for. Shame on you New Times for this bias reporting. As an owner of a home in a historic neighborhood I wish more of our historic homes and sites had been preserved over the years and not torn down to �put a parking lot�! Certainly our historic preservation efforts would have been more successfully achieved if the mass media had been behind the idea. We are now at the point that every historic site must be preserved simply to preserve our heritage. I fully support the owners of this house and what they have done. As in other historic neighborhoods and sites in Phoenix I support the opening and touring of historic sites by all who wish to enjoy our rich history.
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Nina Lamb 02/06/2009 10:37:00 PM
Comment by Scientologist from Phoenix on Feb 6th, 2009, 17:08 pm
You don't lose 40 lbs. in 17 days if you were being properly taken care of. You don't keep someone for 17 days against their will instead of take them to a hospital. You don't get covered in bed sores or bug bites when you are getting proper medical care. You don't pass 4 hospitals and drive 45 minutes when you actually think it's bad enough to warrant a hospital visit once someone has stopped breathing.
"It would be like if you had a friend with the flu and you let him stay in your guest room for the night, but checked on him in the morning to find him dead. Thats not murder."
It wasn't the flu, it was a MINOR car accident. It wasn't one night, it was 17 nights and they sat there and watched her deteriorate until she was dead. How is that not murder?
Go google pictures of her after her death and tell me if she looked well taken care of.
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Rathsamiar 02/06/2009 10:32:00 PM
"Serioously though, the NT sure seemed to be afraid to say anything actually BAD about the church in general, instead making the neighbors seem like a bunch of Southern Baptists when some 'coloreds' moved in down the street, anybody else notice that?"
Yeah, I was disappointed to see that. The Scientologists came off as a bit clueless and the neighbors I read to be bigoted and unnecessarily watchful, which is not the case. They've every right to be worried about what's going on in their neighborhood, really, especially when the high echelons of the Church of Scientology are involved.
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Mike Wells 02/06/2009 10:25:00 PM
"Well, she didn't have any printed material. She had one of her cakes. But she's a pain in the ass!"
Now THAT was funny shit, I don't care if you are pro-, anti- or neutral-Scientology...
Serioously though, the NT sure seemed to be afraid to say anything actually BAD about the church in general, instead making the neighbors seem like a bunch of Southern Baptists when some 'coloreds' moved in down the street, anybody else notice that?
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Anonymous 02/06/2009 10:12:00 PM
Funny, I don't chain my friends who have the flu to a radiator and leave them to die of dehydration. Your psychiatric alternative that you vilify is an example of the fear and paranoia of modern medicine propagated by Hubbard's schizophrenic dogma. You can put up all the docs you want, and truly I wish some $cilon would, suffice it to say I'm glad I'm not your friend.
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Scientologist 02/06/2009 10:08:00 PM
Well, I might put up some court documents later tonight when I get home but I just wanted to comment on one issue.
You guys use the Lisa Macphereson thing as a key ammunition, but you might, if interested dig a little deeper. I'll agree she died, but theres some points that are made more clear from the court transcripts and documents.
For starters, the case was dismissed.
It was discovered that the financier of the case had been paying witnesses and had paid millions to finance the case. He also purgered himself on multiple occasions in his testimony in the case. If I remember correctly, the medical examiner who listed the cause of death as uncertain or suspicious, or whatever language was used, I forget exactly, that she changed the report and resigned after it was found that Robert Minton was paying witnesses (I'll let you assume why because I dont have specific data).
It was discovered that Robert Minton who financed the whole thing had financial ties to a member of the german government Ursula Camberta.
On the death itself- I guess she died, so someone screwed up right? I mean, ideally people dont die when they are in your care. However, whats the alternative? Someone having a psychotic break is generally handled by sending them to a psychiatric hospital where they are tied down with restraints and heavily drugged. Google how many people die from that. I'll give you a hint. It's more than one.
Google "psychiatric restraint death" or "psychiatric hospital deaths". Scientologists dont approve of this and would not want to send their own into that situation.
The way they tried to help her was to give her some time and peace and quiet to get better. I guess how they screwed up was not watching her good enough? I dont know, I wasnt there, but again, the case was dismissed in a court of law after much evidence was heard.
I'm not a spokesperson or speaking for all scientologists. I'm just giving my own personal opinion here.
Again, I'll post some links to court records later if they are still available online. Out of context bits dont tell the whole story.
It would be like if you had a friend with the flu and you let him stay in your guest room for the night, but checked on him in the morning to find him dead. Thats not murder. Scientology doesnt murder it's members. Thats just an extreme lie used so shock people. Frankly it is the main thing that I hear that pisses me off. It's a lie and it pisses me off. Ok, I'm done.
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Anonymous 02/06/2009 9:57:00 PM
Below is a url reference to an email sent out in 2005 "on behalf of" $cientologist Michael Reed to a mailing list. Within the email you will note the deification of L. Ron Hubbard and the build up of significance to what the $cientologists posting here describe as at best a small matter.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/839/hubbardcamelbackhouseql4.jpg
These people are attempting to establish a new revenue stream in the $cilon offering of travel options, as is their rather small boat "The Freewinds" docked in Curacao. This is an attempt to get more money, more money, more money as Hubbard himself once exhorted his followers to do, nothing more.
They lied here about this being not a big deal. Then they said "religious bigots" and "hate speech from masked men," what else are they lying about? For 5 years they've advertised 10 hours a day of "open house" at this place and built up its significance in the minds of their followers.
Settle in for a long war, Camelback. They may well have more money to fight with than you, but they cannot stand the light of day. Much like roaches, if you keep shining lights on them they will eventually scurry away after inflicting as much damage and destruction as possible.
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Anonymous 02/06/2009 9:37:00 PM
Jimmy from Scottsdale says, "The L. Ron Hubbard House is a significant place to a lot of people....
The house is a museum and does not sell anything. I have been there dozens of times with friends and business colleagues and nothing has ever been pushed on them about a book or courses etc. It's just a museum!"
If the "house is a museum" then you best not visit as it is not appropriately zoned and therefore should be immediately closed to the public in that capacity. The ISSUE is that $cientologists would like for a house in a RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOOD to have special status conferred upon it so that they can "have a place to express themselves."
If you want to "express" yourself, do it in a neighborhood and a building that is appropriate to the need and appropriately zoned! No one is interested in ANY WAY in giving $cientologists free reign so that they can terrorize yet more people in their homes. They did it with a NarCONon nestled amongst residences on the beaches of Florida to such a point that their license will not be renewed and they will be forced to vacate the premises by 2010.
Go away! It is that simple. The house is a HOUSE and nothing more to the vast majority of the world, and NOBODY respects L. Ron Hubbard now that the lies about his being a military hero, a doctor, an astrophysicist, a nuclear physicist, on and on ad nauseum, have been exposed. "L. Ron Hubbard Way" in Los Angeles is the subject of a petition drive to the local city council to rename the street back to its former name because the original move by $cientology with their "legal petitions" was fraught with fraud!
What part of people are sick of you forcing yourselves on them by violating both the spirit and the letter of the law in order to have peace, either that or face your constant whining about "victimization" that doesn't exist? OBEY the fucking laws! How hard can it be for $cientologists to comprehend those stimple words?
The answer is of course, that being "homo novis" and therefore superior to us normal "wogs" (word used by Hubbard to describe the outside world, also used as derogatory slang akin to the "N Word" in the real world) who use real courts instead of $cientology ones? Belly up to the bar $cilons, and let's have a city council meeting on zoning! Let's rock boys, time to fight for your "religious" rights publicly, so once again the world can watch $cientology debase and humiliate itself in an effort to get its way.
That's the high road after all, and what else would the "most ethical people on the planet" take? I protest Anonymously because I don't like dicks who try to harass me on the boundaries of ethics, legality and morality. Why buy trouble from crazy people? But if I lived next door to that house, you could be damn sure I wouldn't be "Anonymous" anymore, I'd be "The Plaintiff" by now.
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D00D 02/06/2009 9:03:00 PM
"I'm a bit embarrassed myself for even being here." -Dean
Yeah I would be too if I just labeled everyone who took all of 2 minutes(OMG I COULD BE DOING SOMETHING MORE PRODUCTIVE WITH MY FREE TIME AFTER WORKING HARD AND BUYING GROCERIES AND SPENDING NORMALLY.... LIKE PICKING MY NOSE)as jobless government money freeloaders.
By your label you are one of those economy crashing dumps who read this entire article and posted.
I have no position on this, so I'm not going to even comment, I just wanted to point out the absurdity of comparing reading and posting a comment on the internet to the cause of our economy's downfall. Next time, instead of posting, hop in your car, buy a truck, use that truck to cart home a new tv, and feel better about yourself for stimulating the economy instead of wasting your time here. :)
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Nina Lamb 02/06/2009 9:03:00 PM
It is not because I know too little, but because I know too much that is the reason I can't, in good conscience, keep my mouth shut about the dangerous group that is Scientology.
Try asking a Scientology about Lisa McPherson, they'll merely shrug and say "I don't know anything about that man." How do I know this? I've tried countless times to talk to Scientologists about Scientology. They all just shrug and say "Go read the book."
Fair enough, I'll read the book. I'll read Dianetics over and over and over again. I reference the page in Dianetics that deals with L. Ron Hubbard's opinion of Gay people:
"The sexual pervert (homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism) is actually quite ill phyiscally....He is also so far from normal and so extremely dangerous to society that the tolerance of perversion is as thoroughly bad for society as punishment for it...A bit off the subject here, but it can be remarked about perversion that the best previous explanation for it was something about girls becoming envious of Papa's penis or boys becoming upset about that terrible thing, the vulva, which Mama was incautious enough to show one day. It takes a great deal more than this utter tripe to make a pervert. It is, rather, something on the order of kicking a baby's head in, running over him with a steam roller, cutting him in half with a rusty knife, boiling him in lysol and all the while the crazy people screaming the most horrifying and unprintable things at him. The human being is a very tough character." (L. Ron Hubbard "Dianetics" pg. 103-104 copyright 1950)
Try asking a Scientologist about that quote in their own book, and they'll merely shrug and make up some other excuse.
Why do you play the victim constantly Scientology? Why are we considered the "terrorists" when you are the ones trying to follow me home and hiring private investigators to find out who I am? I don't follow you home, I don't try and sneak pictures of your faces, and I don't want you in a neighborhood where good people pay plenty of money to lead a nice and quiet life.
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Nina Lamb 02/06/2009 9:03:00 PM
It is not because I know too little, but because I know too much that is the reason I can't, in good conscience, keep my mouth shut about the dangerous group that is Scientology.
Try asking a Scientology about Lisa McPherson, they'll merely shrug and say "I don't know anything about that man." How do I know this? I've tried countless times to talk to Scientologists about Scientology. They all just shrug and say "Go read the book."
Fair enough, I'll read the book. I'll read Dianetics over and over and over again. I reference the page in Dianetics that deals with L. Ron Hubbard's opinion of Gay people:
"The sexual pervert (homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism) is actually quite ill phyiscally....He is also so far from normal and so extremely dangerous to society that the tolerance of perversion is as thoroughly bad for society as punishment for it...A bit off the subject here, but it can be remarked about perversion that the best previous explanation for it was something about girls becoming envious of Papa's penis or boys becoming upset about that terrible thing, the vulva, which Mama was incautious enough to show one day. It takes a great deal more than this utter tripe to make a pervert. It is, rather, something on the order of kicking a baby's head in, running over him with a steam roller, cutting him in half with a rusty knife, boiling him in lysol and all the while the crazy people screaming the most horrifying and unprintable things at him. The human being is a very tough character." (L. Ron Hubbard "Dianetics" pg. 103-104 copyright 1950)
Try asking a Scientologist about that quote in their own book, and they'll merely shrug and make up some other excuse.
Why do you play the victim constantly Scientology? Why are we considered the "terrorists" when you are the ones trying to follow me home and hiring private investigators to find out who I am? I don't follow you home, I don't try and sneak pictures of your faces, and I don't want you in a neighborhood where good people pay plenty of money to lead a nice and quiet life.
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Chris Long 02/06/2009 9:01:00 PM
Dear Scientologist Shaw:
Well, find my real name/city attached to this, because your disparaging of anon posters fails to buttress any of the pathology of the Scientology "religion"...
Uh, you keep "forgetting" to tell the sordid tale of the Sea Orgs (anyone remember that Whack-o sect of Scientologists ?) and the battle of control over assets and "church" money that resulted in Hubbard being kidnapped and, perhaps, assassinated.
What we are also missing in the NT account is Hubbard's rejoinder to his staff to "Make money, make money, make money." Then there is the "church" myth that Hubbard traveled the Far East 'learning the secrets of life' from an Indian Guru, when he was, in fact, busily flunking out of engineering school.
Then we come to the ubiquitous fees for the "audits". It it interesting that if the required fees are simply paid, the audits are all dispensed with and the victim is elevated to Operating Thetan (OT3 et al) status and allowed to collect his/hew own fees for audits. Funny, if the audits were so vital to the victims within the "church" how does the prepayment of required fees negate the need for the regimen of the audits ?
One compelling caveat for those wary of Scientology: the most successful penetration of the United States government's departments and institutions by any state, hostile power or group intending harm to the interests of the United States was by Scientologists.
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Chris Long 02/06/2009 9:01:00 PM
Dear Scientologist Shaw:
Well, find my real name/city attached to this, because your disparaging of anon posters fails to buttress any of the pathology of the Scientology "religion"...
Uh, you keep "forgetting" to tell the sordid tale of the Sea Orgs (anyone remember that Whack-o sect of Scientologists ?) and the battle of control over assets and "church" money that resulted in Hubbard being kidnapped and, perhaps, assassinated.
What we are also missing in the NT account is Hubbard's rejoinder to his staff to "Make money, make money, make money." Then there is the "church" myth that Hubbard traveled the Far East 'learning the secrets of life' from an Indian Guru, when he was, in fact, busily flunking out of engineering school.
Then we come to the ubiquitous fees for the "audits". It it interesting that if the required fees are simply paid, the audits are all dispensed with and the victim is elevated to Operating Thetan (OT3 et al) status and allowed to collect his/hew own fees for audits. Funny, if the audits were so vital to the victims within the "church" how does the prepayment of required fees negate the need for the regimen of the audits ?
One compelling caveat for those wary of Scientology: the most successful penetration of the United States government's departments and institutions by any state, hostile power or group intending harm to the interests of the United States was by Scientologists.
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Dean 02/06/2009 8:44:00 PM
All this over a historical house??
Does anyone have a job or are you just looking to kill some time waiting for the "economic stimulus" handout? What a bunch of spite! No wonder we're in the crapper!
No doubt there are zoning rules and regulations that promulgate the uses of such buildings and the square footage and the driveway/yard size would certainly have its inherent limitations--all governed by zoning regulations and codes.
If the building is historical and having awards for the historical renovations that were done, I assume it does have that designation, I don't see an issue here at all. Anything can be done on the property that the owner wishes as long as the activity complies with what's allowed. Or did we forget that in this country there are property rights? Neighbors who have nothing else to do should pull the burning crosses out their yards and try the cake; it might be pretty good. And we should all commit to doing more productive things rather than reading this publication...it really is a sordid little rag and I'm a bit embarrassed myself for even being here.
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Mollie 02/06/2009 8:43:00 PM
People comprise a church. People are not all the same. Churches are not all the same. When some zealot does something hurtful in the name of his religion, it doesn't make me denounce that religion. I have personally studied the writings of L. Ron Hubbard and have found them to be true for me. I don't think all of the parishoners in ANY religion are wonderful people, nor do I think they are all bad people. Prejudice is an ugly thing. I think that the L. Ron Hubbard House on Camelback is a beautifully restored building, and is an extremely historic monument for Phoenix. Marlyse Brock is a very gracious person. She is helping to preserve a very big piece of history in Phoenix. It is a part of our history that Mr. Hubbard did do a vast amount of research in that house while he was residing here. Whether someone likes the product of his research or not does not make it less historical. The house on Camelback and Marlyse Brock are no threat to anyone. It is not a church, nor is it a recruitment center. A group of artists that I work with used this house as a meeting place two years ago where we created a series of artist events, where children/young adults could express themselves, in addition to many poetry by candelight readings. At no time did we ever get asked for money for ANYTHING (including using the space). At no time did we ever get asked to buy anything. Most of the artists, musicians and poets were not Scientologists. They were of many different faiths and practices. The commonality was art. We also never parked anywhere but on the grounds within the walls of the property. We never littered the area, nor did we disrupt the neighborhood. I was very sad when this 'problem' about the house occurred, because it stopped us being able to meet for poetry readings, etc., where families could gather in a very serene setting and enjoy poetry, art and conversation. Young poets and artists had a chance to be heard and supported. These youngsters were definitely not Scientologists, nor were they 'recruited.' (nor were their parents) Many thanks to Marlyse and the L. Ron Hubbard House on Camelback for providing the safe space for us to express ourselves.
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David Miscavige 02/06/2009 8:33:00 PM
Don't you get it? These "anonymous" people are criminals! CRIMINALS and RELIGIOUS BIGOTS! We are recognized by the United States government as a RELIGION, and have every right to evolve into a higher state of beings that rightfully MUST run this planet. If we need to work our staffers a hundred hours a week for fifty dollars plus rice and beans, contain costs by requiring abortions amongst our female staff and put the few who managed to get squirted out to work before they're sixteen, THAT IS OUR CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT! As L. Ron Hubbard said: "To hell with this society". We're building a better one, like it or not.
And stop reading about Xenu without paying us our $360,000.00 up front.
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Rathsamiar 02/06/2009 8:19:00 PM
"This is AMERICA! And one of the things that makes us great is our freedom of religion!"
This is not about beliefs themselves. Believe whatever you like. I whole-heartedly support that choice. It is the organization itself, and how it mistreats its influence and powers, not the beliefs themselves, that I have a problem with. There's a difference.
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Jimmy 02/06/2009 8:12:00 PM
The L. Ron Hubbard House is a significant place to a lot of people. Just like when people of many faiths travel the world to see things of religious significance(whether it is their faith or not), this house and Phoenix have a lot of history about the Scientology religion.
The house is a museum and does not sell anything. I have been there dozens of times with friends and business colleagues and nothing has ever been pushed on them about a book or courses etc. It's just a museum!
I like how the article portrays Marlyse. There is nothing "fake" about this lady. If she invites you over or brings you cakes, it is not with a phony face. Even the writer could see right through any notion that she was "up to something".
Anybody who looks into the purpose of Scientology would easily see that it is all about making a better world. A world without crime, drugs, war, illiteracy and insanity. Like any religion it is there for those who want it. For those who don't, that's fine too. Just don't try and destroy something you know nothing about, or your only information is from the internet, news articles or somebody else. Try looking for yourself. This is AMERICA! And one of the things that makes us great is our freedom of religion!
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San 02/06/2009 8:02:00 PM
"There are probably a few people you know who would, if you did something to improve yourself would object. The better you got the more they object. Maybe it�s your mother who doesn�t want you to know she attempted an abortion on you. Maybe it�s your brother who is doing drugs and thinks you might know. Maybe it�s your friend who had sex with your wife. Not to be overly dramatic. But there is most likely one or more people in your life who would object to you studying and doing scientology."
Bloody hell. Am I the only one who noticed this? Not to be overly dramatic, but this is exactly what they do. The second a church member has a friend or family member who gets a little worried about them and says "Maybe Scientology isn't as good for you as you thought." THIS is what they say about them.
The Scientology system of belief tells them that any person who has anything slightly negative to say about Scientology has terrible secrets or things wrong with them. You don't like how the Scientology organization got away with the wrongful death of Lisa McPherson? You're a terrorist or a child molester.
If mother protests, chances are she tried to abort you. I'm sorry but that is seriously fucked up. This is what they say to turn you against your family. They must have done something horrible to you and that's why they don't want you to be a part of this wonderful thing. Stay too long in Scientology, and you're overly paranoid of the entire world, making yourself out to be a tragic victim, without even knowing it. The Scientologist lives in a world where not even loved ones can be trusted because only the suppressive(the wicked), would dare lift a finger against the 'church'.
I've done some soul searching in my life. As 'free-spirited' child and teen I explored many religions, and not all of them made my father or grandmother happy. But not once did a follower or pastor tell me they were terrible people. I saw my parent's concerns for what they really were. They wanted to make sure I was safe, that I wasn't being duped or taken advantage of. They wanted the best for me. And dear Scientologists, if you ever see the day or have ever seen the day where friends or family express their concern, don't push them away. Don't be fed lies about them. They love you. No honest doctrine would immediately vilify a naysayer as aggressively as Scientology does.
You can call me whatever you like, a terrorist, a religious bigot, it will never make you right, and I won't let it get to me. And anyone willing to believe you without taking the time to get to know me isn't worth my time. I'm out there every month not for myself, but you, the low-level Scientologist. In the end, you really are the victims, but not in the way that you think.
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Jenny H. 02/06/2009 7:56:00 PM
As someone who has read Dianetics (and hated it!) and has had to deal with Scientology's stress test people hounding me when I was walking to work, I can say that you don't want these people in your neighborhood.
They will put on a nice face and bring you coffee cake now, but if you do anything against them, they will come down on you like a ton of bricks. They have something called a "Fair Game" policy, where anyone who criticizes them can be lied to, harassed, sued, and destroyed. It has happened to many people who speak out against Scientology.
This is not an organization you want in your neighborhood in any way, shape, or form. Get them out now.
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Anon Aleichem 02/06/2009 7:49:00 PM
Chris says:
"ve read all the rumors and heard the allegations of scientologies �crimes�, yet I�ve never seen the slightest indication on my own examination that they are even remotely true."
So court records, coroner's records, Scientologists sitting in jail or having sat in jail for being convinced of federal crimes (like L Ron Hubbard's wife), internal documents made public by the church or ex-members, the testimony of ex-members, the testimony of Scientologists given to the media, and audio records by L Ron Hubbard are not enough? What more evidence could you POSSIBLY need? A video of David Miscavige kicking a puppy with the ghost of L Ron floating over him, telling him to do so?
It's like a Holocaust denier standing at the entrance to Auschwitz and saying, "There were no concentration camps."
GO READ THE RECORDS.
Xenu.net
whyweprotest.net
whyaretheydead.net
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Scientology
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Rathsamiar 02/06/2009 7:47:00 PM
To assume that everyone in your closest circle wants to see you fail so that they look better than you... is a sad outlook to have on life. If my family and friends said something about what I was doing, 99% of the time it would be because they're concerned for my well-being and want the best for me, and what they see going on worries them. Not because my mother attempted to abort me and wants to see me fail in life to make her look better.
If Scientology's actual precepts truly work for you--the auditing, the practices, etc.--I'm happy for you. It's a rare thing that a person can find something that betters them with no harmful consequences. But the Church itself(as opposed to the 'Freezone') is not without consequences, as have been well documented. Court records and death certificates are not rumors floated along newspapers or by word of mouth, but fact. The organization itself, at it's very core, is corrupt and dangerous. Which is my motivation for speaking out, because it's a saddening thing to see people hurt because they didn't know the facts.
I think there's been some confusion here, because we're not here to attack the religion /itself/. It's what the organization, the business of the Church of Scientology does to its members and critics that our quarrel is with. The Freezone Scientologists believe the very same principles as you, read the same books, and study the same material. But they don't force members to have nothing to do with outside influences that might possibly say a bad word about Scientology. They don't use information from auditing sessions to blackmail members when they decide to do something the Church doesn't agree with. And we have no quarrel with them.
It's not over the material--it's an issue with the betrayal and punishment of human beings who put their trust in their organization.
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Chris 02/06/2009 7:07:00 PM
The �truth� is all too easy to twist and pervert on the internet and news media to sell papers or forward an agenda. Lies and rumors are all too easily forwarded, and are too often accepted as �maybe true� by the uninformed reader. Anyone who follows political campaigns, or even watches everyday �news� knows this to be true. Look what passes for information in our society- gossip shows, sensationalist �news� stories, controversy, sex and violence leads the news every night. My question is why are there still so many scientologists? I�ve read all the rumors and heard the allegations of scientologies �crimes�, yet I�ve never seen the slightest indication on my own examination that they are even remotely true. I do have the advantage of having read the basic books and studied scientology so I actually know what it is. It�s unfortunate that some who have no true information on scientology will accept some of this data as true. I leaves me in the position of defending something that needs no defense. It�s not fair really. I�ve gotten nothing but immeasurable benefit from my study and application of scientology. It�s simply knowledge of self and life. It�s books and lectures and courses and spiritual counseling. No sane person who knew what it was would object to it.
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Anonymous 02/06/2009 6:53:00 PM
You've got it wrong, Anonymous is the group which brings delicious cake. $cientology is the group that brings stress test tables, people pushing "personality tests" which have no statistical validity whatsoever on the vulnerable who subsequently kill themselves immediately after being told by some untrained clown of a $cientologist that they're deficient in every manner "but don't worry, $cientology can fix you!" $cientology is the group that brings the frivolous lawsuits; the economic destabilization and marginalization of neighborhoods resulting in dropping real estate values which they use as a springboard to unfair property acquisition of houses that won't sell because they themselves caused the crash in prices.
$cientologists are guys like Reed Slatkin, you remember him? The Savings and Loan bailout that set the standard by which all Bernie Madoff's are measured? Right.. that Reed $latkin, the $cientologist doing time.
"The only $cience of the mind," yeah right. Sort of like cyanide is "the only breakfast of champions."
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Jim Reeves 02/06/2009 6:41:00 PM
Wow... Must have been a really slow news day at the New Slimes. You didn't even manage to make a mole hill out of this mole hill. "Run for your lives! The Scientologists are coming and they're bringing CAKE"!!!
The facts are that Dianetics is man's only science of the human mind and Scientology is man's only science of the spirit and life. The goal of Scientology is making the individual capable of living a better life in his own estimation and with his fellows and the playing of a better game. Now, my having said that does not make it true. And others claiming it is false does not make it false. It is true or not on its own and can only be so judged. So, I encourage one and all to grab a basic book on the subject by the author of the subject, L. Ron Hubbard. ("New Slant on Life" would be an excellent choice. Available at your local library, I bet.) :)
Jim Reeves
Phoenix, Az.
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Anon Aleichem 02/06/2009 6:40:00 PM
Scientologist from Phoenix says:
"If you haven�t read Dianetics; if you haven�t studied the basics of Scientology; if you haven�t examined it for yourself instead of searching out and accepting �shocking� rumors and lies, then you do not know about Scientology. That�s just how it is."
This is an example of Scientology's doctrine: "Always attack; never defend." The imputus is always on the accuser not to prove that they're correct, but to know that they're wrong. Scientology is always the victim, everyone else is wrong.
Never once have I heard a Scientologist address any of my specific inquiries except to call me a liar, a racist, and for some reason a child rapist. (Scientologists are taught that people who oppose the church do so because they have some kind of sexual perversion) I once approached a Scientologist who was personally involved in the events surrounding the death of Lisa McPherson (as evidenced by court documents and internal Scientology documents that are now public), pointed to a picture of Lisa McPherson (with her name under her picture in case there was ANY confusion) and I said, "I will protesting if you tell me why Lisa McPherson died."
She looked me straight in the face and said, "I have no idea who she is," and then continued to hand out fliers saying I was a member of a terrorist organization.
The Scientology response to legal evidence thrown in their face is, "You are liars and racists and no nothing about the church." They never actually address the issues (the denial of the Xenu Hubbard tapes, the mysterious deaths of members, the physical abuse of former members by church leaders, the forced abortions of Sea Org members, the disconnection policy, or the asbestos that was found on their cruise ship). They never mention the issues. Their response is simple, "Go read our literature. You do not understand us."
This is not a valid response.
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Scientologist 02/06/2009 6:21:00 PM
There are probably a few people you know who would, if you did something to improve yourself would object. The better you got the more they object. Maybe it�s your mother who doesn�t want you to know she attempted an abortion on you. Maybe it�s your brother who is doing drugs and thinks you might know. Maybe it�s your friend who had sex with your wife. Not to be overly dramatic. But there is most likely one or more people in your life who would object to you studying and doing scientology. When you started to look brighter and get a confident look in your eye; when you started to do better in life and break free of the things that hold you down, they will often strongly object. If you don�t know your scientology they will probably succeed in suppressing you. They are willing to believe any rumor or lie they read, spread by others in the same boat as them. They don�t know anything about scientology. They just know they have to destroy it because , if their friend Joe keeps getting smarter, sooner or later he�s going to look them in the eye and see that all is not well.
If you haven�t read Dianetics; if you haven�t studied the basics of Scientology; if you haven�t examined it for yourself instead of searching out and accepting �shocking� rumors and lies, then you do not know about Scientology. That�s just how it is.
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Rathsamiar 02/06/2009 6:01:00 PM
Exactly what Edweird said. Anyone curious would be more than welcome to join us for First Friday this evening, outside of the Phoenix Scientology building at 3rd St. and Roosevelt.
As much as I'd love to be able to go by my real name, Russell, it's a danger to my life and future that I do. I'd prefer not to see you and your associates show up at my place of work or my home to slander me, as you've done to Jeff Jacobson and others under Fair Game--which doesn't exist, as we hear again and again. If it doesn't exist, why do you and other Scientologists protest people's homes and create lies about them, exactly along the Fair Game guidelines?
The greatest issue I see in trying to bring awareness of Scientology's crimes and dangers to current and potential members, namely current members, is that, even as Russell Shaw and Ricketts exemplifies here in the comments and article, respectively, is this victimization complex. Considering the information is not very difficult to find, it can only be assumed that they're unwilling to seek it, and only ask answers of their higher-ups. The bond is dangerous and saddening all at once, because the majority of Scientologists are simply well-meaning, normal people pulled off the streets who trust too much.
It's why they refuse to see what happened to Lisa McPherson could just as likely happen to them. It's why they're convinced disconnection is a myth. It's why they don't believe it's possible that Phoenix Anons could have ever been followed by PIs just after protests.
Russell Shaw, Mary Joost, and whoever else is convinced we don't know what we're talking about... If you spent but an hour, but a fraction of the time we each ourselves have spent, researching information online, in court files, in newspapers, in ex-members' recounted experiences, you'd see there is full reason to question the Church of Scientology's actions. Ask. I dare you, ask what happened to Lisa McPherson or why Fair Game is still a policy. Inquire as to why so many members of Scientology, whose lives are supposed to have improved so much with the Church, have committed suicide in despair and bankruptcy, because they have spent every last dime on Scientology(This would apply, of course, to those who are not celebrities or well-known real estate agents. You know, the bulk of Scientology's members/victims). Tell them you have some family members who disagree with the Church--or even are protesting it! See what your benevolent institution does. Tell them you're thinking about leaving--see what happens. Join the Sea Org and see how long you can last.
Speaking as someone who has /has/ spoken with a Scientologist about these things for well over an hour solid, even as he knew I was apart of Anonymous, he was never able to give a satisfactory answer besides "People say things". For deaths and families torn apart, this Scientologist, who runs seminars and classes, and has been in the Church for nearly 30 years, he was never once able to give a reason. Instead, he talked about how Hubbard's opposition of the treatment of psych wards in the '50s made him enemies that have transcended to this day. It took nearly half a year to finally manage to speak with a Scientologist in complete honesty as to my beliefs on the religion, and even then, he could give me no answer.
Why? Because he and most other Scientologists around are being manipulated and lied to by the people above them that they trust.
But if you're convinced that we're wrong, be my guest. Try what I suggested above, and if not a thing goes wrong, if they don't blow off your questions or turn hostile at your words, perhaps, against all the enormous evidence, we're wrong after all. But I doubt it.
For once, for your own well being, find a source that's not a Scientologist, and see what you find.
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Anon Aleichem 02/06/2009 5:37:00 PM
One of the controversies is trying to determine exactly what kind of scam Scientology is. And I'm not saying "cult" here, I'm saying "scam." At first I thought it was a pyramid scam, as they have a pyramid on their buildings sometimes, but that would involve the middle-level people making money, which they don't. Most Sea Org members make well below minimum wage (as they are allowed to do when classified as "religious volunteers" - another reason to strip Scientology of its tax-exempt religious status, to stop the abuse of its workers by paying them 59c an hour). Someone in this thread called it a Ponzi scheme, but I don't think the economics are quite right because it doesn't openly involve "investments."
What Scientology probably is is a gold brick scam. A gold brick scam involves selling a tangible item for more than its worth. Scientology is the only religion where you are required to buy (and when sales are down, re-buy) all of your instructional materials, from the initial set of books to tickets to lectures to hourly auditing session which can cost from $300 - 1000 per session. The stated WORTH of all this is that you will become "Clear" of body thetans (which you learn later are dead alien souls) and experience no illness or suffering in your life, have a perfect memory, can fly, can move objects with your mind, and can kill suppressive people with your thoughts. Nobody has ever attained the state of "Clear" or anything like it in the history of Scientology (or man, really). Nobody flies, Scientologists still get sick (they just often don't use medicine or go to the doctor until their cancer is too advanced to treat). As to making people realize their "full potential" (as leader David Miscavige promised in his television interview with Ted Koppel), the majority of Scientology deaths that are listed on whyaretheydead.net are suicides, usually related to running out of money to pay for Scientology courses, and a few cases where people were denied their medication and died as a result. Also, none of Scientology's medical claims have ever been backed by any non-Scientology practitioner of medicine. L Ron Hubbard tried to get the e-meter proven to be a therapeutic device, but studies were done and the gov't disagreed, which is why a "for religious purposes ONLY" label has to legally be slapped onto the back of every e-meter (check for it at your local stress test stand!).
So, based on the evidence in the cases of dead Scientologists, and the testimony of every single ex-Scientologist, what is being sold to the partitioners as valuable and worth hundreds of thousands of dollars has none, or significantly less than that.
That is a gold brick scam.
As for Scientologists comparing themselves to early Christianity whenever they are questioned, I say to them, "Jesus didn't charge an entrance fee to the Sermon on the Mount." I'm not even Christian and I don't believe Christianity is a scam, just another religion that will actually send me all of their sacred texts for FREE and sit down and explain them for hours for FREE if I want them to. Just like every other legitimate religion.
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Anon Aleichem 02/06/2009 5:36:00 PM
One of the controversies is trying to determine exactly what kind of scam Scientology is. And I'm not saying "cult" here, I'm saying "scam." At first I thought it was a pyramid scam, as they have a pyramid on their buildings sometimes, but that would involve the middle-level people making money, which they don't. Most Sea Org members make well below minimum wage (as they are allowed to do when classified as "religious volunteers" - another reason to strip Scientology of its tax-exempt religious status, to stop the abuse of its workers by paying them 59c an hour). Someone in this thread called it a Ponzi scheme, but I don't think the economics are quite right because it doesn't openly involve "investments."
What Scientology probably is is a gold brick scam. A gold brick scam involves selling a tangible item for more than its worth. Scientology is the only religion where you are required to buy (and when sales are down, re-buy) all of your instructional materials, from the initial set of books to tickets to lectures to hourly auditing session which can cost from $300 - 1000 per session. The stated WORTH of all this is that you will become "Clear" of body thetans (which you learn later are dead alien souls) and experience no illness or suffering in your life, have a perfect memory, can fly, can move objects with your mind, and can kill suppressive people with your thoughts. Nobody has ever attained the state of "Clear" or anything like it in the history of Scientology (or man, really). Nobody flies, Scientologists still get sick (they just often don't use medicine or go to the doctor until their cancer is too advanced to treat). As to making people realize their "full potential" (as leader David Miscavige promised in his television interview with Ted Koppel), the majority of Scientology deaths that are listed on whyaretheydead.net are suicides, usually related to running out of money to pay for Scientology courses, and a few cases where people were denied their medication and died as a result. Also, none of Scientology's medical claims have ever been backed by any non-Scientology practitioner of medicine. L Ron Hubbard tried to get the e-meter proven to be a therapeutic device, but studies were done and the gov't disagreed, which is why a "for religious purposes ONLY" label has to legally be slapped onto the back of every e-meter (check for it at your local stress test stand!).
So, based on the evidence in the cases of dead Scientologists, and the testimony of every single ex-Scientologist, what is being sold to the partitioners as valuable and worth hundreds of thousands of dollars has none, or significantly less than that.
That is a gold brick scam.
As for Scientologists comparing themselves to early Christianity whenever they are questioned, I say to them, "Jesus didn't charge an entrance fee to the Sermon on the Mount." I'm not even Christian and I don't believe Christianity is a scam, just another religion that will actually send me all of their sacred texts for FREE and sit down and explain them for hours for FREE if I want them to. Just like every other legitimate religion.
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02/06/2009 4:46:00 PM
ATTN: all
Tonight will be our monthly protest of the Cult of Scientology. We have maintained this monthly vigil for a year now, without incident. If you wish to express your dissatisfaction with the CoS; I invite you to our peaceful protest on the NW corner of 3rd St and Roosevelt starting around 7pm-ish.
Come be heard, oh and the First Friday festivities are worth the trip as well.
To Mr Shaw.
Sir, I wish to mention that my associates and I have made every attempt to keep this discourse between anonymous and your faction as non-personal as possible. As our intention has always been to dismantle Scientology under the weight of its own lies and deceit. The local members of Scientology are, in this anon's opinion, merely the cattle that this organization feeds upon. Believe what you want, honestly I would prefer you do it in the "Freezone"(although I think it is nutty as well) and let loose the shackles of disinformation perpetuated by your own RTC and SeaOrg.
Now regarding the anonymity... I conceal my identity due to Scientology's long history of abuses against its critics. And I wish to not share the same fate as them. I have already been stalked by your Org's staff, private investigators, and been slandered by your Org's management. Strangely this harassment has started to slow now that we have expanded our full disclosure with the local police. I also wish to mention that the masks and lack of identity also serves as a method to keep the discourse about the issues instead of allowing your thugs to engage in harassment and ad hominem attacks. All of which in the effort to avoid the unpleasantness of actually discussing our issues with your "churches" actions.
Russ, if you want to talk it out... I welcome the occasion.
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Mary Joost 02/06/2009 4:44:00 PM
I find it fascinating that people have negative viewpoints on subjects they know very little about. It shows that we are a society that believes everything we read and hear in the media and don't bother looking for ourselves. If I wanted to know about something, I'd go to the source, not ask others of their opinion. Why don't the neighbors of the L.Ron Hubbard house go to their library and take out one of the books that Mr. Hubbard and find out for themselves what Scientology is? The books are available. A very good book that is a worthwhile read is A New Slant on Life. Look for yourself, don't depend on others to do your looking for you.
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Anonymous 02/06/2009 9:24:00 AM
According to the Maricopa Tax Assessors records, the home is owned by a corporation named "Mile High, Inc." out of California:
Owner: MILE HIGH INC
In Care Of:
Mailing Address: 6400 CANOGA AVE STE 315
WOODLAND HILLS CA 91367 USA
Deed #: 010832644
Sales Price: $400,362
Deed Date: 9/10/2001
Sales Month/Year: 12/2000
Not at all surprising, Mile High Inc. is directly connected to $cientology as basically a DBA ("Doing Business As") name in many places, here is one of the more obvious...
"2. Section 501(c)(3). The Annual Report shall include a certification to the Service from CTCC members, in their Corporate, At-large, or Individual status, that Scientology-related entities recognized as described in Code section 501(c)(3) under section III, paragraphs B. or C. will operate in conformity with Code section 501(c)(3) and the regulations thereunder and that other Scientology-related entities will operate in a manner that does not jeopardize the tax-exempt status of any Scientology-related entity so recognized. Specifically, but not by way of limitation, such certification shall include the following Scientology-related entities: Church of Scientology Religious Education College Inc., Church of Scientology Advanced Organization Saint Hill Europe and Africa, Church of Scientology, Inc. (Advanced Organization Saint Hill Australia, New Zealand and Oceania), RTC Australia, San Donato Properties Corporation, Transcorp Services, S.A., MCL Services, N.V., Media Storage, Inc, Mile High, Inc., Galaxy Productions, Inc., Mastertech, Inc. [emphasis added], Nesta Investments, Ltd., and FSO Oklahoma Investments Corporation."
source: http://www.whyaretheydead.net/Cowen/essays/agreemnt.html - "Closing Agreement in Final Determination Covering Specific Matters" (in re. IRS v. Scientology).
And the corporate records of Mile High Inc. available online from the California Secretary of State's website indicate...
Corporation
MILE HIGH, INC.
Number: C1352370
Date Filed: 9/26/1985 Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
419 N LARCHMONT BLVD NO 86
LOS ANGELES, CA 90004
Agent for Service of Process
JEANNE M GAUGIN
MOXIN & KORBIN
3055 WILSHIRE BLVD STE 900
LOS ANGELES, CA 91110
Moxin & Korbin require no specific cite to lead you to your own exposure to their acting as one of the primary legal vehicles for waging a legal war of terror with what's been judicially recognized as a pattern of judicial abuse which has made them subject to SLAP judgments against them in California.
Google is your friend, keyword: Kendrick Moxon Scientology
This house isn't even owned by people! This house is owned by a corporate arm of the cult of $cientology, and historically $cientologists make the WORST of neighbors. Again, all one need do is Google: Scientology neighbors and look for lawsuits and people having to spend time and money to stop their abuses.
NarCONon, New Mexico recently abandoned their building in the dead of night owing tens of thousands of dollars in unpaid utility bills alone. They even went so far as to steal kitchen appliances out of the prison, and were housing violent prisoners on the sly and in gross and willful violation of their lease.
Here's the real downside Camelback. $cientologists own the house and if you don't let them get their way not only will they call you "religious bigots" and "Adolf Hitler," if you won't let them make it a museum, they'll go for a zoning variance to make it a NarCONon transitional housing facility for drug addicts who will periodically turn up dead on drug heroin OD's when in point of fact they began treatment solely as alcohol abusers, and it appears the victim's supplier may well have been his NarCONon (to be read $cientology)"drug counselor" whose only qualification was a diploma of certification from a $cientology diploma mill.
Mr. Shaw's got an advantage, or at least used to before he helped to create Phoenix's artificially inflated, poorly financed, now totally tanking real estate market. Presumably he has not yet given all of his money to $cientology and therefore will be able to afford a good attorney if and when they U. S. Attorney General begins to investigate the cult.
Soon enough Mr. Shaw. Soon enough. It is not "religious hate speech" to expose organized criminal activity and to call for its prosecution. Unlike $cientology's allegations against critics, the crimes of $cientology are extremely well documented, heavily referenced, and available online freely for all to see.
Knowledge is free.
We are Anonymous.
We are Legion.
We do not forgive.
We do not forget.
Expect us.
We do not forget.
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Anonymous 02/06/2009 7:35:00 AM
The following information is public record and freely available on the Internet.
source: http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/picket-fencing.htm
"Besides his Web barrage, Shaw has also targeted Jacobsen by picketing one of his Friday-night dances.
Jacobsen plays music at the weekly events, held at resorts such as Mountain Shadows in Paradise Valley, where readers of Single Scene gather. Four times, Scientologist picketers have demonstrated outside, carrying signs with slogans like "Jeff Is a Bigot," "Jeff Is a Porno King," and "Say No to Religious Hatred."
On two of those occasions, Jacobsen says, the picketing occurred on a darkened sidewalk where no hotel workers or guests could see what was going on. He says he wouldn't even have known he was being picketed if a friend hadn't come in and told him."
(snip)
""Well, of course we don't want it for free on the Internet. Don't you understand that? It's copyrighted material. It belongs to parishioners when they are at that level of spiritual attainment. We have the right to receive donations for all of our services. So it's not right for people to criticize us for how we operate," Durhman says.
One of Durhman's parishioners who has picketed Jacobsen is also a familiar local personality. Realtor Russell Shaw, whose advertisements frequently run on radio and television, maintains a Web site denouncing Jacobsen as an "A.R.S. Bigot."
Shaw couldn't be reached for comment on his Web site. His wife, Wendy, says that he is in Los Angeles and could not be contacted.
But Shaw's Web site makes clear his feelings about Jacobsen. Comparing Jacobsen and eight other critics to Adolf Hitler and Ku Klux Klan members, Shaw writes that Jacobsen's "always disparaging comments have the effect of creating violence, discrimination and hatred. . . . When you open Jeff's closet, all the dirty diapers and dishpans fall out."
------------
source: Lexis
THE RUSSELL SHAW GROUP, REALTOR
11211 N TATUM BLVD STE 200
PHOENIX, AZ 85028 US
TELEPHONE: 1 602 957 7777
URL: http://www.russellshawrealtor.com
TOLL FREE PHONE: 1 866 357 3604
Description: "Discover assistance with Phoenix and Mesa listings. Specifically representing home buyers and sellers with information on Phoenix Arizona real estate and Mesa Arizona real estate needs whether you are buying, building or selling."
WEB SITE SIZE LEVEL: Large (125+ pages)
WEB SITE POPULARITY LEVEL: Low (< 20 referral sites)
LAST UPDATE: June 29, 2008
PUBLICATION-TYPE: Company Profile
LANGUAGE: ENGLISH
---------------------------
Dear Mr. Shaw,
In the interests of full disclosure, as proud as you seem of being a $cientologist, it seemed more than relevant to disclose the fact that you compare protesters freely exercising their right to free speech as "Hitler" and "klansmen." It's always good to see a proud $cientologist who links to the Citizen's Commission on Human Rights on his personal website. Have you seen the recent video where the President of that $cilontology front group blames 9/11 on Psychiatrists?
Proud of that too I bet'cha, amirite?
We know who you are, and we know what cult you are from. Don't worry, we're the Internet and we're here to help.GPSJ
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Russell Shaw 02/06/2009 7:02:00 AM
Most of the hateful comments seem to be from people who aren�t even up the level of using their real names. At least the neighbors (for the most part) were up to using their own names to spew their silly bile.
Like it or not, Scientology is here to stay. It isn�t going to be driven away or driven underground by any group of any kind any time. Anyone who does not like it may as well resign himself or herself to the fact that Scientology is an anvil that will wear out any hammer. If spewing hate is what makes you happy, enjoy yourself but you won�t stop Scientology.
The L. Ron Hubbard House is just that, a house. Ron Hubbard lived there at one time. There isn�t anything hidden or secret about that. Some people (including quite a few neighbors who aren�t deranged) have actually enjoyed seeing the house and safely eating some coffee cake.
I am proud to say that I have been an active Scientologist since 1973. One of the most important things I�ve learned is that there are basically two types of people: those that intend and try to improve the people and the world around them and those that are fixated on �stopping things�. When one has descended into the later category it makes little difference regarding the �goodness� or �badness� of what their attention fixates on to stop � they are fixated on stopping things.
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L. Ron Tom John Kristie Prisci 02/05/2009 9:15:00 PM
Scien"tool"ogy produces Scien"tool"ogists.
Scientoologists, you're good at secrets, but the question is; do you keep them or are they keeping you? Who's keeping who?
Tools and fools, one and all.
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Anonymous 02/05/2009 8:41:00 PM
Re: Rharia
If the self-proclaimed 'Church' of $cientology is a religion, then so is the mafia.
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Anonymous 02/05/2009 8:18:00 PM
"Galileo said the Earth was round, and look what happened to him"
$cientologists will always throw metaphors like this around.. Asserting that anything they've PLAGERIZED or INVENTED is as ground breaking as what Galileo did is a joke.
What they will do is make sure all the neighbors leave THEN move $cientologists into every residence in that neighborhood then... VOILA... another Co$hood .. just look at clearwater florida.
OHH and love the guy who's bathrooms are bigger then that house.. THAT MEANS HE'S IMPORTANT!!.. actually suxATlife...
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Jaywalker 02/05/2009 8:01:00 PM
To all Phoenicians!!
I am writing this as a ex Phoenician now living in LA. Dont let these parasite cult members gain foothold. Get rid of them now while its still not too late!!
-Jaywalker
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Anonymous 02/05/2009 7:35:00 PM
Rharia from Phoenix said, "Thank you to the New Times for exposing such a blatant and outrageous example of bigotry and hatred in such an "enlightened" neighborhood. Last time I checked religious freedom was still a part of the United States constitution. Believe with them or believe against them, any religion needs to be treated with respect and politness. Its our heritage. Shame on you, neighbors. I had thought that we have entered an era of change, concern and caring. Guess it has not filtered down to you."
Scientology is not a religion; it's a ponzi scheme with an underlying tone of a self-help program. Can I ask which planet you're from? "any religion needs to be treated with respect and politness (sic)," go tell it to Westboro Baptists.
Grow up! This is a cult attempting to infiltrate a neighborhood. The street should be shut down to bus traffic, and if the sucker is zoned residential they out to shut it DOWN! Is there an HOA in this area, and are they connected to the neighborhood group who signed a petition.
I don't know if the New Times is aware of it or not, but tenants next door to a Scientology building seeking a permit to expand from 5 to 7 floors a building next door to an Aussie Ministry of Defense secured contractor facility, recently signed a similar petition and delivered it to local politicians. Scientologists delivered an photocopied, unsigned, poster size and stapled on trees in the neighborhood letter which said...
We don't like opposition
Opposition takes you out of the Light
Without Light you are nothing
We crush opposition and opponents
We know who you are
Do you know who you are?
You have been warned!
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=29967&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
This occurred in Sydney, and a criminal investigation regarding terroristic threats has reportedly been initiated by both the police and the Aussie Ministry of Defense. Apparently Scientologists decided that the best way to deal with opposition to their aims at neighborhood modification was to threaten more than 100 people with a magical and mysterious message that directly says, "We know who you are, and we're going to get you!"
Good luck Camelback. You're going to need it. Say the word and get the permission of everyone else in the neighborhood that it doesn't bother you folks, and we can probably have boots on the ground protesters in front of their house on whatever day is convenient.
To Scientologists reading this: do not worry, we know who you are and what cult you are in. We are the Internet, and we're here to help.
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02/05/2009 7:19:00 PM
Re: "Believe with them or believe against them, any religion needs to be treated with respect and politEness."
I assume you would offer the same amount of respect and politeness to Jim Jones's followers, members of Heaven's Gate, or the Branch Davidians? The sum is the same, the desperate and dedicated are easy prey for the greedy and manipulative. I fear that eventually the business model will follow in the same foot steps as LRH's death; as David Miscavage put it "discarded the body he has used to facilitate his existence in this MEST universe, and it had become an impediment to researching the upper bands of OT". In other words... to reach OT9, even Hubbard had to drink the flavor-aid.
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Rharia 02/05/2009 6:48:00 PM
Thank you to the New Times for exposing such a blatant and outrageous example of bigotry and hatred in such an "enlightened" neighborhood. Last time I checked religious freedom was still a part of the United States constitution. Believe with them or believe against them, any religion needs to be treated with respect and politness. Its our heritage. Shame on you, neighbors. I had thought that we have entered an era of change, concern and caring. Guess it has not filtered down to you.
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David Mudkip 02/05/2009 6:43:00 PM
I do not blame them whatsoever for not wanting a dangerous, insidious cult on their doorsteps.
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James Lightfoot 02/05/2009 2:34:00 PM
The residents of this neighborhood would do well to investigate what has happened to the residential and business areas of Clearwater and specifically the residential areas around cult buildings in Los Angeles. Specifically the people who have the misfortune to live near "Big Blue" in LA. Those poor people have faced having their streets shut down and refused entry into their own homes. (I am not making this up) Cult members in LA regularly apply to shut down L. Ron. Hubbard Way and deny residents the ability to drive and or even WALK to their own homes (their security thugs have to legal right to do this, that however has never stopped a Scientologist). An elderly woman trying to gain access to a nearby hospital (I believe she was using a walker) called the Scientologist BAD PEOPLE as she hobbled away. Other residents who have spoken publicly about the cult's interference in their property access rights have reported being harassed (called fair game) having their garbage gone through as the cult attempts to gain access to personal information.
Downtown Clearwater is almost dead. The townspeople are terrified of the cult and any opposition is met with covert and overt personal attacks. For years the Clearwater police have been an extension of the cult more often than not turning a blind eye to their many illegal actions. This information is not hard to find. Just google it. I suggest that residents of this area join together and radically oppose any more cult expansion or incursions because the one thing folks in other towns have discovered, is, give the cult an INCH, and they WILL take ten miles. Good luck, because you are most certainly going to need it.
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Anonymous 02/05/2009 2:29:00 PM
Google "Lisa McPherson" and "Operation Freakout".
Do you want THAT kind of people living next door to you? I sure as hell wouldn't.
www.whyweprotest.net
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Wendy Tocan 02/05/2009 2:25:00 PM
Folks in Arizona, you have to keep this under close watch and do something to stop it. Listen to what ex-Scientologists are saying. Check it out for yourself as there are many people aware of this cult and how it takes over lives, towns, legislative bodies, etc.
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jeff oxenburg 02/05/2009 2:16:00 PM
"That they � friendly, conscientious, mostly Christian people � will somehow be culpable in the recruitment of more Scientologists, which is what they swear is happening at the L. Ron Hubbard House."
Needless to say, this is exactly what is happening at LRH house. You can expect that every Scientologist is always in the process of recruiting-- that's what cult based ponzi schemes do... that's all they do. Even when they tell you they are not recruiting, that is because they are recruiting. They are graced with the "ethical" directive to lie to everyone outside the cult to make the cult grow, and take more money. It's not rocket science-- the ex cult members ALL say the exact same thing.
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Allan 02/05/2009 2:11:00 PM
I�d just like to add a little post script here to my comment above. The irony of the Scientologist is that he or she is told that Scientology is The Road to Total Freedom but what happens in fact is that you will not find a single Scientologist who doesn�t essentially have the same world view that L. Ron Hubbard espoused. If you understand this you will have understood a great deal about Scientology. These are not bad people. They are simply very badly confused. If they could only for a moment remember the true freedom of thought which they had as their common and garden selves pre-Scientology I am sure many would leave. Breaking through that particular belief-bubble is far from easy however and usually takes some personal trauma or other so that the individual has the realisation that they are no better able to cope with it now than they were pre-Scientology. So much of Scientology is reinforced reality. Scientologists constantly agree with each other that reality is the way THEY see it and this of course firms this view in their minds by constant reinforcement. What is happening of course is that they are simply digging deeper into a hole. It is very sad. But they will certainly convince themselves they�ve never been happier!
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Canonymous 02/05/2009 2:04:00 PM
With a few minutes of study on Scientology and its long, sordid, list of antics just about anyone can understand the concerns of the neighbors, they are well founded. And get a grip CoS, the dump was a rental and has no historical significance to any but the devotees! What next? 'Lron slept/staggered/farted here.' signs everywhere? The guy was a con artist, a fraud, liar, and charlatan. Thats just the nice stuff.
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Canonymous 02/05/2009 2:03:00 PM
With a few minutes of study on Scientology and its long, sordid, list of antics just about anyone can understand the concerns of the neighbors, they are well founded. And get a grip CoS, the dump was a rental and has no historical significance to any but the devotees! What next? 'Lron slept/staggered/farted here.' signs everywhere? The guy was a con artist, a fraud, liar, and charlatan. Thats just the nice stuff.
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Allan 02/05/2009 1:18:00 PM
I have first hand knowledge of the Church of Scientology as I was a member for fourteen years until 1984. Your other commentators are more or less correct in their estimation. Scientologists can be very personable and no one should get the idea that they would willingly do any harm. No, they simply believe that Dianetics and Scientology works and that everything L. Ron Hubbard said is the literal truth. I am afraid I discovered this was not the case, as did many thousands of other ex-Scientologists.
It is true that they do whatever it takes (in their eyes) to forward Hubbard�s ideas and plans for the US and indeed the world as a whole and they will have researched extremely thoroughly how to get their way in this case. They will have isolated who they say what to and what behaviour to exhibit depending on who the person is and what they wish to achieve. They are therefore, an extremely difficult group to defend against. Hubbard gave them few words of restraint. On the contrary he gave them instruction to essentially ignore any so-called �wog� (that�s any non-Scientologist) rules and some basic human rights also. This was the height of arrogance of course, highly irresponsible and has resulted in gross misbehaviour including Operation Snowhite and many individual cases of mental cruelty.
There are very nice personable Scientologists. And they can be very friendly and constructive. But most of the time there will be a question in their minds: �What would Ron do?� Most of the time this will involve them being very nice to you. But, if you appear to be doing something which seems contrary to forwarding the ideas or plans of L. Ron Hubbard they will have no compunction about being very ugly indeed to you, or anyone else who gets in their way.
I wish the residents of this quiet place the very best of luck in keeping it the way they like it, but I fear they have little chance to do so. Sooner or later the people from Scientology will unfortunately be likely to get their way.
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Allan 02/05/2009 1:16:00 PM
I have first hand knowledge of the Church of Scientology as I was a member for fourteen years until 1984. Your other commentators are more or less correct in their estimation. Scientologists can be very personable and no one should get the idea that they would willingly do any harm. No, they simply believe that Dianetics and Scientology works and that everything L. Ron Hubbard said is the literal truth. I am afraid I discovered this was not the case, as did many thousands of other ex-Scientologists.
It is true that they do whatever it takes (in their eyes) to forward Hubbard�s ideas and plans for the US and indeed the world as a whole and they will have researched extremely thoroughly how to get their way in this case. They will have isolated who they say what to and what behaviour to exhibit depending on who the person is and what they wish to achieve. They are therefore, an extremely difficult group to defend against. Hubbard gave them few words of restraint. On the contrary he gave them instruction to essentially ignore any so-called �wog� (that�s any non-Scientologist) rules and some basic human rights also. This was the height of arrogance of course, highly irresponsible and has resulted in gross misbehaviour including Operation Snowhite and many individual cases of mental cruelty.
There are very nice personable Scientologists. And they can be very friendly and constructive. But most of the time there will be a question in their minds: �What would Ron do?� Most of the time this will involve them being very nice to you. But, if you appear to be doing something which seems contrary to forwarding the ideas or plans of L. Ron Hubbard they will have no compunction about being very ugly indeed to you, or anyone else who gets in their way.
I wish the residents of this quiet place the very best of luck in keeping it the way they like it, but I fear they have little chance to do so. Sooner or later the people from Scientology will unfortunately be likely to get their way.
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Dean Fox 02/05/2009 7:25:00 AM
Having lived in the US for 6 years I am gob smacked the local Government make out like they can't do anything. If they don't already have an ordinance allowing neighborhoods to set up their own neighborhood committee maybe they should get one and give the neighbors the powers to properly police this insidious cult in their midst, otherwise they should nip this in the bud quick and close down the operations altogether.
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Anonymous 02/05/2009 6:03:00 AM
Don't let $cientology get a foot hold in that neighborhood. Look what they did to Clearwater and L Ron Hubbard Way. Fight the power.
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Anonymous 02/05/2009 5:58:00 AM
Don't let $cientology get a foot hold in that neighborhood. Look what they did to Clearwater and L Ron Hubbard Way. Fight the power.
