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Matthew 05/18/2012 9:48:00 AM
I have absolutely nothing to do with having zero ties to this case, that i am conscience of, nor do I practice any specific or non specific religion, however, I know for a fact this is unconstitutional. The city should not nor any other governing body have anything to with this Salmon family's method of worship and the style or construct of the building itself other than ensuring structural safety and capacity standards. As for the neighbors, they sound like cowards afraid of new, change, or any difference that they aren't practicipating or understanding and are more than likely willing to trade their liberties for security out of fear of the unknown. This is always a slap in my face because if a persons own neighbor won't live and let live I'm positive this neighbor would trade my livelihood for a stick of gum. There participation in preventing this family from living in the promised state given to all citizens by the constitution which is vital to the U.S. is true display of cowardliness. Hopefully, in time, there will be the sense and foresight needed by this neighbor and neighbors around the country to help them to apologize, embrace their neighbors differences, and stand up not for their own rights but for their neighbors and their neighbors kids rights. Stand up for my rights. Stand up for your rights!!!!
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Rob Astrolux 06/10/2011 9:29:00 PM
All you whinning christians, always playing the victime stancs, always thinking youre so special, always thinking that the law doesnt apply to you. Grow up, stop acting like 2 yr olds. You believe in a bronze aged book of lies, myths, fables, violence, judgemeny, and outright immorality. Youre all so extreme about your emotions and blind. Like Richard Dawkins said, "their ignorance is their strength". But the numbers of non-christians are growing rapidly, and this next generation is leaving the lies aside. Youre losing, get used to. You guys are bo special snowflakes. No tissues for you. And yes, this country was not founded by Christians----fact
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ANGELICCALVIN 03/22/2011 8:40:00 AM
YOU KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE SO POWER STRUCK THAT RELIGION DON'T MATTER BUT SOME FOLKS CAN HAVE SHOOTOUT, PORN PARTY, DRUG PARTY BUT NOT ALLOW THIS MAN TO PASS THE WORD OF GOD THROUGH US RED BLOODED HUMAN THE WORD OF GOD NOW THAT IS POWER...
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Christ 10/19/2009 6:25:00 PM
Your right we do live in a country governed by rules and regulations it is called the constitution. This constitution protects formost our rights to worship and free speech. The only idot there is, is you. This guy has the right to worship where ever he pleases this is his right and he is protected. Just like I have the right to say that you are an idot for thinking that people have the right to stop people from worship on their property and call it the "law". You call yourself an american? Maybe you should go to a third world country, if I remember last, they do not allow you to build a church in your backyard.
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Heath 07/30/2009 4:52:00 PM
Your an idiot for placing this article. I don't want a business or church in my neighbors backyard and find this incident acceptable as a red blooded American. We have rules and regulations in this country which makes us the best. If you don't like the rules and conformity of this countrygo to a third world country, you can then do whatever you want. In fact if any of you disagree this incident do the rest of us a favor and leave. Just go.
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Noah Buddy 06/30/2009 11:24:00 PM
I never heard of Michael Salman until recently and only because of a rather controversial video which I will include in this message.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GREmbEQoqRM
This guy supports the slaying of George Tiller?
His two channels
http://www.youtube.com/user/kryptologos
http://www.youtube.com/user/harvest777123
Just thought I'd give you the heads up
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David M. 06/29/2009 6:12:00 PM
I have been a part of HCF for a long time. We have met at the pastors home for about 1 1/2 years and I can tell you that we have never parked in anyones driveway, or caused noise or dust. As for the money thing, our fellowship is small. 50-60 people. The pastor works for a Visa / MasterCard company he is one of the main directors of the corportation so I know that what he does he does out of his own pocket. I also know that we do not pay him anything for what he does. Many people find that hard to believe but you really have to know him and his family to understand his heart. He comes from a hard past and feels totally in debt to God. God has really blessed him for that. I just wanted to say these things. As for the neighbors we tried to talk to them but no matter what we say and do they want nothing to do with the church. It is sad. We do know that they moved to have the city make it very difficult for the Pastor to do anything on his property. i am sure the rest will come out. People can believe what they want to believe but eventually the truth will come out. As of court, I know that if I were him, I would sue anyone who tried to stop me from practicing my faith.
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Walt 06/29/2009 3:13:00 PM
I have just read through the above story and the story that was done last year and I just have a few of things to say.
First - All those people talking about Zoning laws, STOP it and learn about the zoning laws where this story takes place.
In last year story (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-01-17/news/michael-salman-wants-to-build-a-church-in-his-backyard-his-neighbors-aren-t-buying-it/), it states several times that in Phoenix they allow churches in Area Zoned Residential. So your arguments are just plain wrong on that point.
second - Does any one know if the Pastor was able to complete to complete the building? The Story last year said that it was just a shell but the current story states that it looks like other churches on the inside.
Third - Just an observation and not meant to insult the pastor - In the old story the Pastor stated that the Justice Department would sue as a Friend of the Court if the city stopped another service. Is the Pastor trying to push the city to Stop another service so he can sue in order to get enough funds for his larger building project?
Fourth - I am a Diest and not a Christian so I feel I look at religions ( mainly the Jewish/Christian/Islamic ones, and their off shoots) a bit differently then members of those religions do.
That way is.. That while MANY religions do start off a philanthropic organizations that do what they do out of a belief that they are helping others, historically ALL turn into businesses.
Meaning ALL Churches turn into Money generating entities.
If you do not believe this you can prove it to yourself by doing this;
Imagine that if the church that you belong to stops receiving money (either from donations, gifts or supplied by a pastors outside employment).
Now honestly answer how long could the church supply it's services (not just worshiping)? Examples, How long could the pastor pay for gas/ vehicles to get to where he street preaches? How long could the pastor help out those that need money to pay utilities or rent or they lose their place to live?
Fifth - The story from a year ago pointed out that it was when the Pastor did not take his neighbors into account on his decisions concerning the building in question that all the trouble and hostility started. What could the Pastor have done back then to reach a compromise with his neighbors and the city?
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Liz 06/27/2009 11:01:00 PM
I too am a member at Harvest Christian Fellowship and I have to say that what a blessing it has been to worship along side my friends and family. And just as in worship, I stand along side them when we say that the atrocities that are being committed against our pastor, his home and especially his family by our city government are shameless. And it's not just Harvest Christian Fellowship that should rightly be offended. It should be every private residence who has the right to assembly.
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Yonko M. 06/27/2009 4:34:00 AM
My pastor takes no money for preaching the bible. He has a job and works very hard for his family and church. There is only 50-60 of us that meet at his home and there is 4 acreas. Whatever is given is not enough to take care of the property and his family. By the way we use the money to help other missions and services. The money we give goes to serving the Lord and the future. It is our religious duty Malachi 3. So whether we go to to the pastors home or not we give to the work of the Lord. It is our religious obligation. Obviously some of you are not Christians so if you think a church is a business you are very very wrong. Maybe some of them may act like it but our gatherings and worship is not. As a matter of fact that is in insult to me as a Christian. People need to get off the mind set that Churches are a business. My pastor preaches in the street, who pays him to do that? Nobody. He preaches everywhere because that is God's calling on him. I have know my pastor for 7 years. He has a heart for God. People who think this is about the money don't know my pastor. People need to sit with him and see what he does before they think it is about the money or even a business. People are so quick to judge without getting our full story. The city is wrong for what they did and you guys are wrong for believing them. We just got news today that the city lied to the judge to get the search warrant. The pastor showed us the affadavit that the cops and city swore about. They lied about a lot of stuff. When people lie to get a search warrant there is a big problem.
A brother in Christ,
Yonko
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Ben 06/27/2009 1:40:00 AM
�Ben and all those who think anyone deserves to be treated like crap. FUCK YOU! I am not a christian and I don't give a shit if people like this dud who wroship their god. What I do care, is assholes like you who think the police have the right to come into someones home and treat them like animals because they are having church on their property. Send a letter first. Get a fuckin life, I fought in the war so that people like him and you, you asshole can have these freedoms. he can practice his religion like you can practice your free speech on this board. So fuck you and all who think that people can't practice their religion on thier property. Go to another fuckin country. You are not ameican, learn how to stand for your rights. Semper Fi
By the way, our freedom of religion is protected and not our freedom to have a tire shop, know the difference shithead.
Comment by Christ Dames from America on Jun 26th, 2009, 18:09 pm�
Christ Dames, thank you for your service to this country first off. I to served our country, in the Navy, Submarine forces so I too risked my life for the rights guaranteed in the Constitution.
But the simple fact is, NO BODY is STOPPING him from personally worshipping whom ever he wants to. No Body is stopping his wife or kids from personally worshiping whom ever he wants. Nobody is telling him that he has to worship something else.
The City wants him to stop doing the BUSINESS of the church in that building, and zone that is not regulated for a business.
All you people who are up in arms about him being denied his freedom of religion are wrong in the fact that NO BODY is stopping him from his personal worship.
If you think about what you folks are really upset about is;
He can�t have a large group of people in a building with no Fire suppression system.
He can�t stand in front of a group of people and ask them to place money in a receptacle.
My example from above comparing a church to a tire shop is still valid, both are businesses. Both receive money from people for services and or products received.
The product people receive in exchange for money in the tire shop is tires and a feeling of safety from a new set of tires.
The product people receive in exchange for a donation of money is spiritual fulfillment and a sense of safety from a particular religious outlook that has been confirmed.
Will the tire shop still give good service if the person does not give them money? Yes, the tire shop will fill your tire to the correct pressure and assure that they are safe.
Will the person get their tires? � probably not but they will get a nice dose of guilt as the tire shop person goes on about how many bills will go unpaid if he gives his product away for free.
Will the church still give good service if the person does not give them money? Yes, the church will still give you a sense of safety from a particular religious outlook.
Will the person get the spiritual fulfillment? Probably not, but they will get a nice dose of guilt upon hearing about how many projects go unfunded and so many people go un helped.
Whats the main difference then?
The tire shop has to pay taxes and is expected to be built in a commercially zoned area/ site.
The church does NOT have to pay taxes and is expected to be built in a commercially zoned area/ site.
The Pastor is still free to talk to other people about his and their interpretations of what ever religious texts he wants to
He can still give marriage counseling to other couples.
He can still guide people that look up to him as a spiritual leader.
He can still tell people that homosexuality and abortion is wrong.
JUST not in that unsafe, non zone correct building.
Oh Chris by the way one of the rights you and I swore an oath to protect was Freedom of Speech. So when you say �Go to another fuckin country. You are not ameican, learn how to stand for your rights. Semper Fi� what you really are implying is � I do not agree with what you have to say and I since I am trained with a fire arm I will hurt you for not thinking like me if you do not leave or start to think like I do.�
When we spoke our oath at induction into the military we did not get to pick and choose what rights or whos rights we get to support and do not support. So stop trying to make me give up my freedoms with threats of violence no matter how subtle you think you are being.
In supporting the freedom of speech you can use thoughtful engaging dialog to counter my points and persuade me to see your point of view, but you may not threaten violence.
By the way when the police go into someones home with a Judge issued warrant they are following another one of our rights that we promised to protect (the right against unreasonable search and seizure.) If the warrant is signed by member of the judiciary branch of government then that member has personally guaranteed (guaranteed with the possibility of losing their personal Liberty if they are incorrect) that they have reviewed the evidence of probable cause and have determined that there is a high likely hood of danger to the greater populous that out weighs the individual right to HIDE that danger and cause potential harm to other right to Life and or Liberty.
Just wondering though. Did you even think of the constitution while you were over �THERE�, did you ever think about how you were denying the same basic fundamental human rights that are out lined in our constitution (you know the same one you took an oath to support) during your tours of duty?
How many foreign civilians did you pull from their homes and place a bag over their head during your tours of duty?
How many innocent foreign civilians did you detain and search when looking for a gunman?
How many Mosques did you enter with out warrants to look for weapons or explosives?
I know that every time I locked my subs weapons systems on to a cargo ship, passenger liner, submerged contact, air born contact or land based target I thought about what would happen to the persons on board that vessel or in that installation if I deprived them of their right to life.
I thought about their families continuing life without that person.
I did think about the rights that we Americans hold so sacred and so dear to the heart and I made sure I thought about all the implications of taking those same rights from another human being.
Can you honestly say that you thought about the other guy that was at the end of your weapons sight every time, or did you only think about how you or your friends were still alive and they other guys were not? Did you ever think about the inalienable rights of the people in the country you were in.?
If you did not think about other peoples inalienable rights then why do you care if the preacher got told to sit in his living room as a city inspector checked on what a building was being used for when he had already broken the city ordnance. No where in the story or his response did I ever see if this preacher ever tried to get a variance of the zone that the building was in to have an exception made for him.
If he goes and gets a variance and then brings the building up to code then the city will leave him alone because he will have met the minimum conditions set by regulations.
Again this boils down to money and this preacher not wanting to spend any of the money given to him by his flock
Oh and by the way it really looks like the City and cops did not even need a warrant since the �game room is in a field / or back yard.
The is an exception to the 4th amendment
Exceptions to the warrant requirement
Open fields
Open fields doctrine
Similarly, "open fields" such as pastures, open water, and woods may be searched without a warrant, on the ground that conduct occurring therein would have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
In Oliver v. United States, 466 U.S. 170 (1984), the police ignored a "no trespassing" sign, trespassed onto the suspect's land without a warrant, followed a path several hundred yards, and discovered a field of marijuana. The Supreme Court ruled that no search had taken place, because there was no privacy expectation regarding an open field:
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Christ Dames 06/26/2009 11:09:00 PM
Ben and all those who think anyone deserves to be treated like crap. FUCK YOU! I am not a christian and I don't give a shit if people like this dud who wroship their god. What I do care, is assholes like you who think the police have the right to come into someones home and treat them like animals because they are having church on their property. Send a letter first. Get a fuckin life, I fought in the war so that people like him and you, you asshole can have these freedoms. he can practice his religion like you can practice your free speech on this board. So fuck you and all who think that people can't practice their religion on thier property. Go to another fuckin country. You are not ameican, learn how to stand for your rights. Semper Fi
By the way, our freedom of religion is protected and not our freedom to have a tire shop, know the difference shithead.
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Ben 06/26/2009 7:59:00 PM
"Even criminals have rights. If people felt that the pastor was a criminal because he said it was a gameroom, the city still and no one still has the right to violate him or his family. Proven criminals are even protected. People who think that people deserve to have their rights trampled are just plain ignorant.
Comment by Justin Kiola"
So then Justin. If your neighbor builds a large building in his backyard and tells the city that it is his game room. Then after it is built he uses it to run his auto body shop/ tire recycling operation out of it and the consequences of his business interfere with your daily/ weekly life and household functions.
Would You still feel that the City/State does not have the right to come in and confirm that this building is being used for the stated reason on the building permit. (A judge must have felt that there was enough probably cause if a Administrative warrant was ordered by a standing judge)
(Issuance of Administrative Search Warrants: The Bureau shall apply to the Presiding Judge for the issuance of administrative search warrants for inspections or nuisance abatement's required or authorized by statutes)
Would you also say that it is not prudent for that city person to have Police protection when Serving said warrant and to do the inspection when the complainant who alerted the city office of this possible violation also clues the office in on the fact that the person doing the violation is also the defendant on multiple (at the time current) law suites that involve dangerous behavior or circumstances.
(Please remember that just recently in the news has been many stories of police officers/ state troopers and deputies in multiple states being shot and killed (ambush style) while serving warrants.
What if you were that city official doing your job and doing that inspection.
Would you want go to the location of a confirmed defendant in multiple dangerous activity lawsuits (you would have checked out the rumors made by the complainant, you do not just want to take the defamation of someones character from just say so, would you?) alone and without protection?
As for the police keeping everyone together and escorting one person when they needed to go away from the group, it is for the safety of everyone involved.
How many news stories have you heard or read where illegal drugs or dangerous items were found in a baby's diaper or a weapon was found near a crib or under the child's mattress?
Can YOU tell when someone (Male or Female) is about to go Branch Dividian or Jim Jones and start attacking law enforcement authorities?
If you can, you need to contact the US Military, they could use your help in telling who is a violent religious extremist/terrorist and who is just an innocent non-violent religious person.
I have to agree with everyone else who is saying this Guy/Pastor is in the wrong. Even in his on post he shows complete contempt for the safety of his parishioners. He laughs off the idea that HE NEEDS PROTECTION FROM FIRES.
I don't know about you but I try to stay away from people who think fire can't harm them. Those are the ones who are going to play with fire the hardest and least safely.
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Mary Abel 06/26/2009 3:05:00 AM
I think that it is apparent that Isaiah 11:11 is about to
occur. And it isn't until we are in the snare and the total
bondage.. that we are going to see the exodus.. greater than
the one out of Egypt.
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Justin Kiola 06/26/2009 2:26:00 AM
Even criminals have rights. If people felt that the pastor was a criminal because he said it was a gameroom, the city still and no one still has the right to violate him or his family. Proven criminals are even protected. People who think that people deserve to have their rights trampled are just plain ignorant.
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steven elijah 06/25/2009 11:04:00 PM
I am a Christian and i have occasional meetings in my home. This man is deceptive and that is ungodly. God calls us to a high standard of holiness and obediance to him. I also came from a bad past. He is totally wrong. If he wants people in his living room and den he is entitled. He needs to repent and leave behind his old ways. ALL OF THEM. Maybe he doesn't realize that God speaks to people today if they seek with whole heart. Jesus does not want him to try to deceive the authority by being tricky. He should be an example in all things. All authority is ordained by God, says the Holy Bible. It says if you do wrong the authority is sent from God. Oh- don't play with matches.
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Jesse Rod 06/25/2009 4:39:00 PM
My brother on behalf of the brothers at Calvary Community we say, Go Brother!! Worship God and don't let anyone stop you!! Praise God!! Our church is behind you.
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Jeff Graham 06/24/2009 10:25:00 PM
Hey Mike from Mi. Stay in Michigan. You have shown your colors.
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Mike 06/24/2009 9:26:00 PM
Hey Pastor
this is from your own web site & your teaching is inaccurate and incorrect.
"This teaching is inaccurate and incorrect.
In order for us to get the most accurate teaching we must understand the jewish religion prior to Christ.
1. The Jews were given the 10 commandments and the law to follow until the Messiah was to come and then they were to follow the Messiah."
You are so wrong.
There are 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
(the 613 were cut down to 10 by none other then your favorite Ex-roman Paul / Saul)
Please see this web site for Accurate information.
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
So if you are SOOOOOO wrong on this simple and easily verified fact then what else are you wrong about.
Oh Yeah, your wrong on the fact that you are trying to by pass zoning laws and cheat someone out of their rightful monetary remittance while you benefit.
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Mike 06/24/2009 9:02:00 PM
"Die Hard Christians who were told by the government, NOT TO ASSEMBLE, TO REGISTER ALL CHURCHES, TO REGISTER ALL GATHERINGS, and SUCH, it is them who stood against these people and formed what we call America. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and others stood against the government, were called rebels, liars, and traitors by Britian but were called Freedom Fighters and Revolutionaries by us."
Hey Pastor BOZO the Convict Coward.
All those you mentioned were not christian, they were DIESTS. That is they put their faith in GOD and not another Jewish guy claiming to be the messiah in a time when Israel was occupied by a foreign power and looking to be made king of the Jews.
If you are going to throw "facts" to people who are not SHEEP in your flock (ie people who can think for themselves) then at least get those "FACTS" correct.
This Country was not founded by christians but by DIESTS and those that worshiped a God, a master builder, the sole creator and not a trinity.
It is funny that these so called Born again christians follow the teachings of a church built on the Paulinian teachings.
You know Paul the ex-roman that when he found himself in enemy territory with dwindling supplies and no reinforcement on the way and his life in danger, he suddenly says that "HE HAS seen the light" and goes on to supersede the real followers of the guy called Jesus.
- by the way all those guys if they were real looked like same guys you call terrorists today.
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The Watchmen - Warn Radio 06/24/2009 8:54:00 PM
Warn Radio "into the night"
The-Watchman-Is-21-6
Something that reminds you of Nazi Germany, Russia, China, or North Korea when so called local Authorities call in the Black booted thugs to enforce local law against a local church group!
Remember the constitution, "no law shall infringe on the freedom of Religious expression"
The Free nation, the Christian nation as our President says, "is no more"! NO Kidding!
- The Watchmen
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Mike 06/24/2009 8:35:00 PM
Looks like this "PASTOR" learned a thing or two when he was locked up. Mainly it looks like he learned how to run a scam.
He found religion and is a good man, Right, yeah, yeah thats the ticket.
"Now give me money so I can 'PREACH' more."
" What you want me to give you my hard scammed money in the form of rent, Screw you, I'll go build my own church."
" What's that city official, I have to spend my hard scammed money buying a place that is not zoned residential?, Screw you I will build a , a, a, a Game Room, yeah thats the ticket."
It looks to me like the pastor does not like to get called to the mat when someone asked him why his "church" was special and did not follow the rules like every other church. Looks like he is ALL about the money.
Pathetic coward, hiding behind the bible instead of getting a REAL job.
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Henry 06/24/2009 8:35:00 PM
I heard Pastor Salman on the radio this week and found his story to be facinating. I also read the article and saw the video of the police and stuff. GO SALMAN'S tell them people to take a hike. I am from Texas and our state would never have tolerated such nincompoops.
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Kathy Sheety 06/24/2009 8:29:00 PM
Just read article and just saw last comment. My goodness, people can be mean. After reading both articles I feel sorry for the salman's he must live by horrible people. I have a bedroom that I turned into an office. I must be a liar also. LOL and everyone else who turned their bedrooms into offices and their garages into a work area and their living rooms into an theatre room. We are a bunch of liars. LOL.
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Mike Wells 06/24/2009 7:19:00 PM
Hey, you lied to the city about zoning, it's your own tough luck, you brought this on yourself. As for the cops showing up when bureaucrats would do, as I understand it from these very stories actually, you've been obstructing the city for well over a year, so don't act shocked when they send cops to make you wake up and pay attention.
Quit whining and start telling the truth. If you're building a church, state that on your permit applications, if you're building a 'game room', omit the chairs and altar and put in some 'game' things, otherwise you lied about your intentions, and when you continue to lie, you are just digging your hole deeper.
Grow up and act like an adult. Laws are in place for a reason, there are other places you could have your 'Bible Study' meetings.
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Jim Runder 06/24/2009 7:08:00 PM
I just read a statement about the church. This Pastor or any Pastor or Christian should not listen to these people. People do not understand especially those who are not Christians that the church are the people and not a building. That the people who are the church can gather anywhere they please. This is their right. The church can build whatever they want to build and the church can help whoever they want to help. Where the church meets has not bearing on what they are. Churches meet in retail centers, they rent hotels, and they meet in schools. The school does not become the church, or the hotel does not become the church, when the church leaves it is still a school or hotel. The church is the people and not the building. Of course if you are not a Chrisitan you will not be able to understand that. If you are a Christian and you do not understand that, then shame on you!
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Pastor Michael Salman 06/24/2009 6:59:00 PM
FOR THE FUTURE: I WILL NOT LONGER ADDRESS QUESTIONS ON THIS BOARD. MY EMAIL IS ON THE WEB SITE AND THE VIDEO OF THIS INCIDENT IS ON THE WEB SITE.
WWW.HCFAZ.ORG
Thank you all for your support.
God Bless America!
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Pastor Michael Salman 06/24/2009 6:48:00 PM
Let me start this comment by saying Gideon Trumpet did not make that statement above. I know Gideons Trumpet and it is not right to speak on behalf of someone who has not given you such authority. Who then is the liar? Now let me address this comment, since I perceive you know Some Scripture.
What law am I breaking? The law of not having people over my home to worship? Is there such a law? Do I as a Christian not have the same rights as anyone else? To gather in my home and in my privacy with my family and friends. When the government told John and Peter not to preach the gospel, did they OBEY? NO! Are you stating that the apostles and all those who did not follow the governments command not to worship were disobedient, were liars, were rebels and devious? If so, then I am with good company. What are you claiming I lied about? Have you seen the application, were you at the meeting or are you assuming.? I give you the same question that John gave to those in authority, what is better? To follow the command of God or men.?
Further, do you think that every law of man is RIGHT and should be followed? Because that is what you are stating in your last comment. If that is so then is everyone who challenges governments for making bogus laws, are considered a liar and rebel in your eyes. Are you a socialist or communist? Thank God for people like me who stand against the unjust ways of governments. If it were not for people like me, I assure you, you would not be in America, if of course that is where you are. It is Die Hard Christians who were told by the government, NOT TO ASSEMBLE, TO REGISTER ALL CHURCHES, TO REGISTER ALL GATHERINGS, and SUCH, it is them who stood against these people and formed what we call America. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and others stood against the government, were called rebels, liars, and traitors by Britian but were called Freedom Fighters and Revolutionaries by us. So I guess it depends on whose side you are on, to how you see me.
If you are an American you should know that it is wrong for any government to cross their bounds, by an unreasonable search warrant and false detainment. I was not under arrest, why could I not leave? My family was not under arrest why could they not leave. We were not CRIMINALS why have 15-20 police and city officials barge your home like that. If you think that it was O.K. for this to happen. You should re-think what it means to be a Patriot and especially a CHRISTIAN!
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Used to live in Mesa 06/24/2009 6:40:00 PM
To Michael Salman
I have a couple of observations and few statements and a couple of statements, so please bear with me.
From the article;
"A church assembly use is not allowable under City Code unless the site is developed as a commercial project," a staffer wrote. Seems pretty simple here.
From the article;
"the cops did leave behind a "notice of code violation." It reiterates that the outbuilding may be used only for residential use." What is the lawful definition of residential use?
From your own web site;
"501 (C)3 Religious Organization" Tax exempt status.
Do you draw funds from this organization in order to live day to day, buy groceries, pay for gas to go PREACHING THE GOSPEL IN CALIFORNIA (HOLLYWOOD BLVD & VENICE BEACH) or to NBA ALL-STAR GAME 2009, or to pay for the material and resources used at COMMUNITY WATER DAY OUTREACH 2008 (All Capped items are from the picture page on your own web site.)?
If you do, how does the Church generate this money? Donations?
Are these donations not the same this as the church receiving funds for the services it provides, in this case the service is the sense of spiritual satisfaction / salvation.
Is this not the same model that all business uses - people donate an amount of money for a service or product received from the business that supplies that service or product?
From your own web site;
"We were founded in 2001 in the Pastors home. Once we outgrew the home we began meeting and renting buildings from a church until the Lord provided a place for us." So you don't pay taxes as a religious organization, and now you don't pay rent to other people do conduct your church activities.
From your own web site;
"We are currently trying to raise 3 million dollars to build a 15,000 square foot Christian Center." So you DO raise money for what other churches call a building fund.
From your own web site;
"The Christian Center will have a place for youth to come and escape the street mentality. There will be counselors there to counsel and advise the youth to keep away from drugs, gangs and the peer pressures that accompany teens. We also want to provide a place for free marital & family counseling and family services. We currently have these programs but on a small scale." So you offer the services of other churches (even if on a small scale)
So if you don't pay taxes and don't pay rent but offer the same services as other churches and you receive monetary donations for different projects, then it boils down to a desire on your part for monetary gain.
Monetary gain as in not paying for the more expensive price of a plot of land (site) that IS zoned for commercial or mixed use.
As long as a church/house of worship accepts donations that have monetary value then it is acting as a commercial venture.
The City states that to use a plot of land (site) as a "CHURCH" then that plot of land (sites) needs to be ZONED Commercial or mixed use.
If other churches/houses of worship can follow existing zoning laws and rules then why can't yours?
How is your church different then any other church that has followed the laws and rules?
This is not an issue where "Ceaser" is persecuting Christians or where any government agency is attempting to stomp on your constitutional rights.
This is a case of you trying to get a monetary edge on your business competitors (other churches that have followed the law and the rules).
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Gideon's Trumpet 06/24/2009 3:29:00 PM
To Michael Salman;
from Matthew 22:21, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's."
from 1 Peter 2:13, "13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of the foolish. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God's slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love your fellow believers, fear God, honor the emperor."
From Proverbs 12:22, �22 The LORD detests lying lips,
but he delights in men who are truthful.
So, are you free to disobey the laws of the land, or are you called to obey them?
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Benjamin 06/24/2009 12:42:00 AM
Let the city and the their neighbors know this...
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Thank God I'm in Glendale!!
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Real America Inc 06/24/2009 12:13:00 AM
I am not a Christian and I am not at all religious but I am an American and those neighbors that this guy is having problems with need to get out of dodge. People are so stupid. Further what public official in their right mind would give these dummies power to violate anyones rights. I have been in 2 wars and fought for this country so that these dummies can have rights now they want to stop other people from practicing theirs. If you don't love America and its freedoms which I fought for then leave. Stupid People.
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Good Article 06/23/2009 10:39:00 PM
This is a Great Article. Too bad it was about a Pastor and not about someone who throws a party at their home serving who know what, and advertising it on myspace or facebook and charge cover to all these little high school kids, I have NEVER in my life heard about anyone complaining. We are all tax-payers and we are not ok with our city wasting our money. I also heard this on the News today, it's obviously become a big thing. I do home groups in my home too, last month I had over 30 cars at my home for a birthday party and music blasting real loud, unfortantly I do not have the greatest neighbors either, but at least they didn't complain. If I was the Pastor, I would continue to worship no matter what.
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Wish I was your Neighbor 06/23/2009 10:13:00 PM
AMEN. People need to remember that it's all about JESUS and NOT them or any country. This whole thing is just temporary, God's Kingdom is FOREVER! AMEN!
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Pastor Michael Salman 06/23/2009 7:22:00 PM
Reply to comment of Sow what you reap... NO SHAME ON YOU!! It is people like you that is running this country into the ground. Shall we abondon our rights because there are people like you who feel so. This is a disgrace to our constitution and it is a disgrace to us as americans. You may not be an American so who knows. Obviously due to your profanity you also may not be a Born Again Christian so you don't know. Iran is protesting because their government over reached their authority. Here you are thinking it is O.K. for the city government to break into a home confine 7 people to a room while they trample all over your propety because you hold religious services on YOUR PROPERTY. Shame on you!! This is America and not China. The people in Iran have more class then you do when it comes to telling the government that we will not tolerate your bullying. You should learn alot from what is going on in Iran. So who is the real coward? The one ready to stand for their rights or the one who thinks it is O.K. for the city governement to trample their rights. Thank God I am an American and Thank God I am a Christian. Thank God I am protected by laws that protect Americans and Thank God I am protected by Christ who gives me strength.
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As you sow, so shall you reap 06/23/2009 6:17:00 PM
A label on a room means nothing. - Michael Salman
And your word means nothing. You attested to the purpose of the room on your permit application, then proceeded to put the room (building) to an entirely different use. You knew full well, in advance, how you intended to use the room. But you did not have the decency, the honesty or the guts to be up front about it. Shame on you! Your complaints are baseless, your cries of unfair treatment ring hollow and your efforts to frame this incident as religious persecution is disingenuous bullshit. Real religious persecution would probably make you tuck your tail and run like the lying, sniveling coward that you are. Ask yourself, "What Would Jesus Do?" Lie on a permit application, then cry foul when the authorities investigate? I think the subject of your worship had a little more sense and character than to stoop to the depths that you have, Mr Salman.
Give it up, play by the rules and remove the plank from thine own eye before you attempt to remove the splinter from your brother's eye.
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jenny garcia 06/23/2009 4:21:00 PM
I saw this story in the news and I just read it in this article. I can not believe that the city would do this. What is the neighbors problems? They need to allow people to practice their rights and leave these people alone. They should contact the mayor or governor on this. This is wrong.
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David 06/23/2009 5:57:00 AM
Fight for your right. That is bull. People need to remember we have rights. What we do in private with our family and friends is just that, PRIVATE!! Keep it up.
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Sarah 06/23/2009 12:36:00 AM
The city has no right to go into someones home and tell them what they can and can't do when it comes to private gatherings. If the meetings were causing chaos in the neighborhood with noise, traffic, etc then maybe but if not then LEAVE THESE PEOPLE ALONE! Are they now going to stop my football game parties or my birthday party gatherings? I have a very large family and they come to my house AT LEAST once a week. Are they now going to stop me? If these people have a commercial business or are advertising everywhere for people to come to the church then sure the city would have a right but that's not what is happening. The city needs to tell those neighbors to shut up and let these people meet!
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Sandra Beatty 06/22/2009 8:49:00 PM
Shame on you! The city and state need to stay out of our personal worship. We should be able to worship where and with who we want. And Yes I do go to the Pastor's home to praise and worship God with his family.
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Jame R. 06/22/2009 7:00:00 AM
Folks the point here is, the government needs to get out of the business of religious expression and the church. People are crying about seperation of church and state and then these are the same bozzos who are yelling that the government get involved with the church. The neighbors who are causing such an upheaval will end up costing the city thousands of dollars of our tax money because THEY feel they can not tolerate living next to a person who uses his home for church services. People get over it. Use your own money to fight something someone has the right to do and not our money or MOVE...I hear China is regulates churches.
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David E. Smith Jr. 06/22/2009 3:44:00 AM
This is not about city ordinances or even " Freedom of Religion." The neighboring "Night-Line" digital film crews more than likely got some great shots of Mr. Samuel Atallah.
These pictures probably prompted calls to " Homeland Security Director, Janet Napolitano , the Pentagon ,the White House , and whomever would tolerate an email or telephonic conversation warning of N. Phoenix radical co-conspirators - singing gospel music.
Maybe we should adopt a prime-color civil alert system like the one used during the Bush Administration. We should immediately go from blue to yellow - anytime we spot a citizen carrying a bible.
There is continuous gunfire , in my part of Phoenix , and I willing to bet the ranch it's not coming from the First Methodist Church.
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Heather Brandon 06/22/2009 12:36:00 AM
Which came first, the Constitution or zoning laws?
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George 06/21/2009 4:00:00 AM
�If I could have entertained the slightest apprehension that the Constitution framed in the Convention where I had the honor to preside might possibly endanger the religious rights of any ecclesiastical society, certainly I would never have placed my signature on it.�
-George Washington
We have no government armed in power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. - John Adams
Enough Said..
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Michael Salman 06/21/2009 3:10:00 AM
How many people converted what they call a family room into a dining room? Or a Bedroom into an office? There are millions out there who are using a Bedroom as an office, does that make them hypocrites? How many place a pool table where the dining room is supposed to be or where the living room or family room is? Does that make them hypocrites? That building was built for habitable occupiable purposes. What we do with it now and later is our rights. If we decide to use it to come worship or play pool or to watch TV, what does that matter? We have the right as Americans to gather and assemble and we have the right as Americans to worship, without governmental interferance. A label on a room means nothing. Further just to get the record straight this building is a Residential Detached Accessory Building. The point is, it is habitable and people can be in it. The city of Phoenix Developmental Service were very deceptive and prejudice, they held permits hostage and demanded us to do much more for a permit before we can even receive a permit. All our plans had to be engineered and they took 3-4 months before we can get a permit. While our neighbors received their permits the same day over the counter. I personally had to go into the city to get a permit and they refused to give it to our architect. While my neighbors had their architects get it for them. Further, the point to all this, is that the police and the city had NO RIGHT to barge into MY HOME like they did for such a cause. IMAGINE THIS FOR A MOMENT. Someone complains that your backyard grass is too long. You receive no notice or warning. The next thing that happens is there is 8 police officers at your door with a search warrant treat you like a criminal just so that the city can come in and see the grass in your backyard. Folks, that is a violation of the 4th Amendment!! If you think it is O.K. for government officials to violate your rights just because they think you are wrong then you are in the wrong country. If the majority of the Americans tolerate what the Police and City did to us then I like the comment above me feel sad for this Nation.
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Nolan 06/20/2009 6:47:00 AM
To "Bear false witness" is to lie about someone & cause them trouble. When dealing with snakes, not playing "fair" is wise.As noted, the Building is legal in & of itself. The "code" is not to regulate weekly get togethers to drink & dance & play cards, but to Worship. These people are being stepped on, plain & simple & those who cant see it are simply blinded from all the collectivist training theyve had.
What IF they were a Satanic cult meeting weekly? Would the cops Still be out of order? In America, YES. So few Americans can think straight & fairly & with an understanding of the PRINCIPLES of freedom it sickens me. We live in a "Hall Monitor", tattle tale society, wanting to see the rights of others squashed. What small minded, sad little people America is made of now. Because so many are willing to see the rights of the few stomped on, soon we will all have no rights. Bunch of dummies.
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Neurodoc45 06/20/2009 4:34:00 AM
we need to deluge the press and city officials with criticism and make their life miserable....if Thomas Paine were alive today he would eviscerate the officials and police of phoenix...you folks who seek to defend this severe over reaching of government on zoning or other specious arguments should be ashamed of yourselves....is this how far removed from the constitution and the original intent of the founding fathers that we hide behind the "skirts" of zoning laws to justify our acquiescence to big brothers obtrusiveness? ..is this how "dumbed down" in our awareness of the circumstances of British depradations in the colonies, that we can not easily draw an effective parallel between the two? Where, oh where, are todays modern equivalents to the great men/women known as the founding fathers? I know you are out there....
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Andrew L. Ayers 06/20/2009 2:10:00 AM
The Salmans may not be stupid, but in my opinion they do seem like hypocrites, if not liars.
How can they dare preach the tenets of Christianity, yet "bear false witness" to enable the construction of the building their private services are held in? In the article Mr. Salman claims that "we don't advertise anywhere"; later in the article it statements are made about a sign on their gate for the worship service, as well as stating "advertisements for the fellowship's Web site, www.hcfaz.org, pepper the family's two vans". Truth abounds from this pastor!
I also tend to wonder if the neighbors are being hypocritical as well? Why do they want this church gone so bad; if the outbuilding can't be seen from the street, why does it bother anyone? Do these people who live near Mr. Salman go to church? Why is it OK for them to worship (or not) their way, but not for Mr. Salman to worship his way? Would they prefer for the city to be able to tell them how to meet as well?
Furthermore, why did they falsely claim it was for a "personal game room"? Had they claimed it was for a "personal meeting area", their neighbors (and consequently the city) likely wouldn't have been able to do anything. But because of that falsehood (and some neighbors who seem a tad bit upset over seemingly a small affair), they are now being investigated for building code violations.
Seems like a heap of FAIL all the way around, to me...
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You're No Victim 06/19/2009 9:55:00 PM
Michael Salman, you deliberately misled (lied to) the city about your true intents and purposes for the building in your backyard. Had you been honest (see commandment no. 9), you would have a case right now. But had you been honest, there would have been no visit by city officials and police. You have brought this upon yourself through your own dishonesty. While you and many others view the city's reaction as overkill, you have NO legitimate complaint.
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06/19/2009 8:24:00 PM
I think the whole idea of sending seven officers out on an administrative violation is insane, particularly when Phoenix is the Kidnapping Capital of the USA right now. However, I don't think that Michael Salman acted in good faith either. I mean, seriously, he built a 2,000 square foot "game room," he called it a "game room" on his applications and paperwork, but now he's using it as a church. Whatever happened to "thou shalt not bear false witness"? Or is it okay to lie, as long as you're doing it for Jesus?
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rich 06/19/2009 2:36:00 PM
DAVE...
You missed the point, America's defined by laws,ordinances,
and regulations For reasons.
And if you break one, there are fines/jail or both.
And if he wants to be American, FOLLOW THE LAWS, period.
This country needs to start prosecuting business people, as people and not businesses!!
People in business can lie/cheat & steal all in the name of business, & not pay taxes.
When I say business that means your chosen profession whatever it is.
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sharonsj 06/19/2009 2:10:00 PM
I think the main point here is that the family constructed a large building on their property (probably 40'x50') for worship. If they had held gatherings in their home or backyard, I doubt there would be a zoning problem. Nobody is stopping anybody from from doing that either. But if there are laws in place about how and where you can build a large building solely for religious use, then you are stuck abiding by the zoning laws. All this carrying on about people being prevented from worshiping is nonsense.
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MIKE 06/19/2009 6:46:00 AM
After reading this article, I completely understand the pleasure Romans enjoyed feeding the Christians to the lions.
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Pastor Michael Salman 06/19/2009 5:51:00 AM
Thank you all for your comments. It reassures me that we still live in a nation run by laws that protect our citizens rights. These actions of the city and false accusations of the neighbors will come to an end. We only pray it will not have to be in court. We love our city and our neighborhood. As for one of the comments that make a lot of assumptions about us having no respect it is quite the contrary. This week ALL 3 injunctions were dismissed because the Judge found no harassment on my part. As a matter of fact we proved they were harassing us. They stand at our property line taking pictures of our property and they call the cops or city just because our grass is too long or if we put our bulk trash out 1 day too early. LOL The only disrespect that is interperted by anyone is that we refuse not stop meeting at my property. If you call the demand to practice our religious right and God given call a Disrespect, so be it. Disagreements does not equal disrespects. Nevertheless, you really do not know what it is disrespect until you have the cops and city officials trample on your property threatening to break doors because you have private meetings. We pray that they will apologize for their actions and excessive forces. We love our Mayor and pray he will acknowledge and repremand those who committed such offences before we need to through court. God Bless America.
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Dave 06/19/2009 5:40:00 AM
What??? Do as the romans do is just a horrible remark. Why should the people bow down to people who violate our rights. I have people over for dinner or lunch at least once a week, do I need to open my home as a restraunt. What people do in private no matter how big or small is their right, as long as these people are not parking on their neighbors lots or causing excessive noise. According to the story, they are not. So the neighbors and the city needs to bug off. I think the Pastor should sue the city for violating the 4th amendment and if they stop their gathering also the 1st. We live in America!! If you don't like it go somewhere else.
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rich 06/19/2009 2:26:00 AM
The cops wouldn't of shown up :
1)If he didn't do a drive by shooting!!
(Could of KILLED someone)
2)A report of crimminal property damage,(car fire)
(could of blown up and KILLED someone)
3)2 injunctions for intimidation!
4)Zoning oridances violated.
5)Building code violated.
It seems to me he has little or no respect for people and their property.
Typical of people from that part of the world, if he was
a Christian and not a christian, he would not offend people,
and claim it was their fault.
Moral of the story:
When in Rome do as the Romans do.
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Alexander Z 06/19/2009 2:23:00 AM
A Pagan View and Concern
As an elder in the Pagan Community and former president of a 501(c)-3 Pagan Non-Profit, I find the actions of neighbors and local government especially troubling.
Most Pagan rites and rituals are conducted outdoors - in natural settings such as parks and yes, residential back yards. When conducted in a residential area, most neighbors seem very accepting of the occasional gathering. I say occasional because Pagans generally meet monthly in acccordance with the phase of the moon, rather than weekly and celebrate seasonal holidays spaced approximately every 45 days.
In my last home I established a Temple Room devoted to spiritual practice and where others were welcome to participate in rites and rituals when the weather warranted.
It seems to me that the local authorities have more important matters to occupy their time. While I suspect that a neighbor has badgered civic leaders for relief, there is little the city can do. With or without the structure in their back yard Pastor Salman and his guests are fairly well constitutionally protected with regard to worship. Any attempt to interfere legally will result in the ACLU or others defending Pastor Salman and his guests' activities and end in a costly and wasteful defeat for the city.
So to the neighbors of Pastor Salman I say, "count your blessings," we still live in a nation that protects the right to freely practice one's religion. And if Pastor Salman seems suspect, imagine having a Pagan like myself for a neighbor.... Fragrant incense, soft bells, murmmered chanting, all under cover of darkness or a full moon....
Alexander, 7th Pillar of Sophia
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dina 06/19/2009 12:53:00 AM
shame on the police for not upholding the constitution. Many were uncomfortable because they knew they were stepping over the line.
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Alice Lillie 06/19/2009 12:27:00 AM
The Salmans have been very, very cooperative just by jumping through all the hoops to get the building built. I think it's a travesty they even had to do that.
One's home is one's castle in a free country, or one's church.
This isn't a free country and anyone who thinks it is is out in la-la land.
I hope they fight back. Hard. Really hard and win.
As long as the neighbors' rights are not being infringed, and they are not that I can see, the Salmans should continue.
In case you think there is any freedom left, check out my blog at http://www.alicelillieandher.blogspot.com
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Timothy Nevins 06/18/2009 11:11:00 PM
I feel this issue of the police going into this hom not looking for drugs only because thye where having chruch sercive in thier back yard is a vilation to this faimlys right and should not be allowed to go on. It looks like the police could just go into someones home and tell them what they can and can not do in their home is Wrong
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Jeff S. 06/18/2009 10:34:00 PM
If you are tired of the police state and tactics like these I recommend you research the Libertarian Party and see if it is a fit for your ideals.
Keep in mind, part of living in a free nation is accepting things that you do not approve of.
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John Schneider 06/18/2009 9:34:00 PM
While the city were too aggressive in their approach, I completely disagree that they should have no say over this. I certainly would not want my next door neighbor to build a big structure in his backyard (with the sole purpose of it being for worship) and then put up a sign proclaiming that it's the site of a church. That's what the zoning laws are for--laws that Mr. Salman is trying to circumvent.
It makes no difference if Mr. Salman thinks his purpose is a good and righteous one. It makes no difference if I or anyone else not living in that neighborhood thinks Mr. Salman's purpose is a good an righteous one. The people in that neighborhood bought and maintain homes, thinking that the people around them were also buying and maintaining homes. That's the way it was zoned and the way it was intended to be occupied.
I've got no problem with people getting together in the privacy of their homes and exercising their constitutional right to freedom of religion. But, also constitutionally, we have given the government the right to set up zoning laws to protect the expectations of property owners. Mr. Salman is obviously trying to end run those laws, while proclaiming he's the victim of government infringement of his rights. You can't have it both ways. You can't ignore the laws that are inconvenient to you, then jump and down and point to some other part of the law in your favor.
And I wonder how all those people jumping up and down crying "police state" would feel if this weren't a Christian church. What if Mr. Salman had posted a sign for Satan Worshipping or for KKK meetings in his nice, new little building (also constitutionally protected)? What if your neighbor did that? Still on board the "police state" wagon?
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OutofArizona 06/18/2009 5:23:00 PM
What more can be said other than "Nazi Police State"....
If you live in Phoenix or the outlying areas it's time to get of this state and take your taxes elsewhere.
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Walter 06/18/2009 6:30:00 AM
The people who have church in their home are right. I belong to Calvary Community Church off the freeway and we have home groups. Is the police going to now stop us. I went to CCV and they did the same thing? What is next stop all home groups because they are not churches or commercial. It looks like the salman people have a larger home group thats all.
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Michael Salman 06/18/2009 4:51:00 AM
Sarah you did a great article. What people do in their private homes with their friends and family should be protected, especially when it comes to religion. The update on the Harassment Injunctions is that the Judge Dismissed ALL 3 of the injunctions!! As for the building being unsafe, that is hog wash and a ploy to try to create a state interest.
1) We do not have 145 people in the building. 2) There are 2 Fire Extinguishers 3) There are emergency exit doors not including 8 - 4 x 6 windows. That are easily accessable 4) The isles are at least 5 feet wide. There is nothing obsturcting any of the doors.
Personally these people violated our rights and privacy and their actions were uncalled for. Even if they felt like we were violating something there was no need for so many police officers and so many city officials to barge into our home and violate us like that. THEY WERE WRONG. What if the city did that to your home just because someone filed a compliant on you!! That is our point. We meet in a private and personal nature with family and friends to worship GOD! We do not need any approval on that. It was approved in our FIRST AMMENDMENT. What is our crime? We do not have fire sprinklers??? Give me a break. The city is wrong and they know it. All persons should be careful when city government decides to violate your rights and constitution because of a complaint. Even the city admitted that this was the first time we even heard from them on this issue. That is my comment and I would be willing to expand on anything or any questions people have.
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David 06/18/2009 4:37:00 AM
I can not believe what happened. The city is in trouble if they that. If this was a bar i am sure the neighbors would have no problem. We have rights and I would tell that Pastor to contact an attorney.
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Harry Smith 06/17/2009 11:11:00 PM
I think it all has to do with whether or not the "church" in the backyard is a business. Is it listed and registered as a church? Do they solicit donations or pass a collection plate? Is that part of his home treated differently for taxes? The list can go on.
If it's treated as a business then it's a zoning issue. If the pastor isn't earning an income from giving services there, then it's a private matter.
It's as if you invited a bunch of friends over to watch a movie. As long as you're not charging admission, it's not a theater.
