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12/27/2011 4:47:00 AM
Ooh, a serious criminal investigation. Ten years from now they might release their findings without indictment.
Arpaio and his criminal gang should have been in jail long before now. All we get is "finding" from these cases, while he remains free (and in office) to treat Maricopa county like his own personal fiefdom.
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mary wells 06/29/2010 3:20:00 AM
san bernardino county,in calif should be next.
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02/02/2010 2:32:00 PM
I don't think this will change anything about how the public feels about your sheriff. I just we had someone like him here in Toronto. And what's this I read in Toronto Star paper today that they are firing 352 cops from your local police. That sounds pretty bad.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/759018--police-layoffs-not-in-this-town?bn=1
Daniel ......... Toronto, Canada
http://dandmb50.tumblr.com/
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Tina 09/28/2009 4:27:00 PM
Concerned Citizen, for some time now I too have been seeing the parallels and similarities between the deeply embedded corruption that unfolded in the Watergate scandal which ultimately brought down a president and what's been unfolding and happening now in Arizona with MCSO. Rampant abuses of power, illegal money laundering to ensure that power, misdirected blind loyalty, etc. It's scary.
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Freedom Lover 09/28/2009 3:47:00 AM
I'm scared. Their Staff probably has this paper & everyone in it to be taken into Tent City next. Joe's dream, Tent City to be larger than PHX, then the State, then the Country ~ to Infinety & Beyond!
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Concerned Citizen 09/27/2009 11:11:00 PM
It's time to dust off the film "All The President's Men"!! (1972 Watergate). It could be Maricopa County and Arizona today. PNT is the Washington Post, Sarah Fenske and her colleagues are the reporters who uncovered the corruption that went from the bottom to the top, including the money from outside the country. That was criminal now why is nothing being done here? Maybe this is just bigger than Watergate and no one is clean.
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Dolores 09/21/2009 3:15:00 PM
When is this county going to wake up, realize the truth, and quit electing this crook over and over and over again? Are we all really this stupid? Apparently so.......how sad for the citizen's of Maricopa County. My personal dislike, distrust, and horror at this man's continued actions is way over the top, but you speak to others, many others, in this county, and they all like "Joe"........he's "tough on crime".........and yet we have one of the highest recidivisom rates in the country. Joe's not tough on crime.......Joe's easy on Joe! Why, after all that's been revealed, can we not have him impeached and arrested? I just don't get it!
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William Crum 09/17/2009 3:01:00 AM
Hey Joel, how about taking all this crap(fiction) and write a book like your buddy Clown Arpaio and his two fiction book in which neither made a best seller list.
Cos you sound intelligent and so there is no way to discuss with a brain dead individual. They violated the laws and the County Recorder of twenty plus said so; I really think she knows her stuff. Joel just your affairs in order because alone, you will do a lot of time. Taking down your so call friends, you may get a reduce sentence and a free trip anywhere for you.
To the Bird and the excellant staff of the Phoenix Newtimes: welldone and the end of the era of torturt in Maricopa County could be over. You know we could recall Sheriff Joe and Atty Thomas and really make it hurts. Get on board and send a message to all involved, bye, bye.
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Coz 09/13/2009 4:29:00 AM
Joel,
I don't agree with you at all. If that excuse was to be used as an excuse not to photograph police officers, then at the same time you can say that no police officer should ever be photographed since they could be at anytime be undercover now or in the future.
Sorry, but that�s not how the law is written and the filming was and is completely legal. Don�t like the law, then get it changed. Maybe you could start another PAC and take donations for that�..I wouldn�t give it to the Republican Party this time though.
If they don't want to be photographed, then don't show up to event's that the media is at without wearing a mask while working public events, simple as that.
I spent some time doing UC work for a Federal Agency, I didn�t have to worry about my face being photographed by the media since I wasn�t out abusing the Civil and Constitutional Rights of others and getting video taped while doing so.
Police take the job knowing the risk involved, that doesn't make them above the law or does it set aside the rights of anyone wanting to take pictures or film anything the police do that is being photographed in a legal manner without impeding a real investigation, not the made up one�s by MCSO Goons.
But then again, when you violate so many laws and Constitutional rights as the MCSO Goods do on a regular basis, then I guess you might have a problem with people recording your actions and showing your faces to the public.
The only thing I can say to my friends that take these videos is keep up the great work and keep exposing the constant public abuse by MCSO Goons.
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Joel Fox 09/12/2009 8:47:00 PM
We're getting pretty far off topic here, although I suppose you think we're just broadening it, but I think there's a problem with photographing undercover police officers and putting their faces on you tube.
Obviously working under cover has it's risks and the officers know that. They don't, and can't always wear a mask (who would sell drugs to a person wearing a mask??) while working, but that does not make it ok to film them and put them on the internet.
In all seriousness, Coz, I think you need to contact your friends and at least blur out the faces in the video. Your video will still show everything you want it to show, but if you show just a tad bit of respect for the work these deputies do, and earn a little bit of trust, maybe they'd let you film.
The media, and these activists, like to focus on the operations involving the "regular" folks, but the majority of work in immigration enforcement deals with very large and very well armed criminal syndicates that make all the money transporting their cargo across the border from mexico. That cargo may be drugs, people, or merchandise.
I know you don't agree with them. I know your political ideologies differ. But that doesn't make it right to put them in jeopardy, or God forbid, cause their families to be left without a daddy.
Of course, I don't expect you to believe me, and I don't expect you to take my word for it that the threat is real. Do a google search for "los zetas".
And then do what you think is right.
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Coz 09/10/2009 5:51:00 PM
Sorry about that, here's the links.
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0rQ2Bc8Ai0&feature=related
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxStCK_xDjA
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEQJ70tLav0
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Coz 09/10/2009 5:48:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watc...
http://www.youtube.com/watc...
http://www.youtube.com/watc...
about 6:30 in, "Palmer" deletes the pictures.. Is this Mr 'Shut up'?
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Coz 09/10/2009 4:09:00 PM
One can only hope Roy...
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RadarRoy 09/10/2009 7:24:00 AM
"Many have been conned by Arpaio's often dishonest rhetoric, a deceitful distraction from the corruption now unfolding. Hopefully, it will all come tumbling down via criminal charges and indictments."
Amen!
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Coz 09/10/2009 5:43:00 AM
Actually Joel, I live here too, and it is reality as long as Bozo Joe Arputo is in office.
>>I'd be remiss if I didn't warn you that the media painted picture of Arizona is far from reality.
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Tina 09/10/2009 2:43:00 AM
Mrs. Martha Hisington,
Thanks for caring and offering ideas. I agree that Rachel Maddock would be most interested in this SCA Fund matter, but it's still being actively (and quietly) investigated by the Arizona Attorney General's office, so as far as THIS corrupt gem goes, an airing on her show -- and she'd be excellent -- might be premature. With the cover-ups, money laundering, loyalties, etc. it's reminiscent of Watergate, just a smaller scale.
Arpaio, the sociopath, craves attention by any means and has gotten it many times previously by the national media. About eight or ten years ago he was on Bill Mahrer's show (when Mahrer had a regular network show) and a few months ago he appeared on TV's Comedy Central (can't remember the name of the show host). There was also a lengthy lead feature story in the July 20, 2009 edition of The New Yorker (not available online, but available at public libraries)"Sheriff Joe, One-man Law in Arizona" which will fill you in on much more of what this hate-mongering lunatic has done. It's never ending out-of-control abuse of the police power, and he's getting worse.
Just in the last week he wrote to the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors (responsible for overseeing his budget) insisting that they NOT seek re-accreditation for his deficient county's jails (under his supervision), alleging that the county's move is a "blatant attempt to chip away at my constitutional authority as elected sheriff to run the jails...."
A couple weeks ago his armed henchmen "raided" and took possession of the county's computers, threatening county employees during office hours, to seize them and change the password, although his dispute with county management was currently being adjudicated in the courts.
He has his "enemies" wrongfully arrested constantly. Five such people last December were arrested at a public Board of Supervisors meeting for doing nothing more than applauding a public speaker who spoke against the sheriff and his actions. (That case was dismissed by the court last week, as are so many others.)
Oh yes, and two East Valley Tribune (Mesa)investigative reporters won a Pulitzer earlier this year for their outstanding research and reporting (a series of articles entitled "Reasonable Doubt") into the monetary waste, abominable arrest record and follow-through of serious crimes, and inefficiency of the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office published last year....that was before 60 of the sheriff's armed deputies and posse members then raided the Mesa Public Library, unannounced to local police, at 2:00 a.m. looking for "illegal immigrants" working for a contracted cleaning company. (They allegedly arrested three of the workers.)
And reportedly since Arpaio first took office, close to $40 million has been spent by the county and its insurer on plaintiffs' successful wrongful death, wrongful injury, and wrongful arrest lawsuits awarded those plaintiffs or their families...thanks to this cunning and sadistic sheriff with his grandiose sense of self.
Again, thank you for your interest. Many have been conned by Arpaio's often dishonest rhetoric, a deceitful distraction from the corruption now unfolding. Hopefully, it will all come tumbling down via criminal charges and indictments.
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Joel Fox 09/10/2009 2:09:00 AM
Mrs. Hisington,
You sound like a nice lady. I'd be remiss if I didn't warn you that the media painted picture of Arizona is far from reality. You really should come visit someday (just be sure it's between November and April, otherwise you'll melt).
The Phoenix Metropolitan area has a very large and active Latino community, and there is rarely racially motivated violence between any of the many races that make up the Valley of the Sun.
There is a very volatile political issue regarding immigration with outspoken people on both sides, but the majority of residents live happily along side each other, just like in most cities.
And you must've misunderstood something because the Republican National Committee is not involved in this matter in any way...only the Arizona Republican Party.
I would also ask, as I have continually asked others, hold your judgment until the end of the story. It's easy to grasp on to all the suspicions, and fill in all the blanks with your imagination, but I can assure you, it won't be accurate.
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Chad Snow 09/09/2009 9:13:00 PM
David Saint, you can contact me through my office number, which is available on the State Bar of Arizona website. Leave me a message and I'll call you back. Always have liked your opinions, would like to meet you sometime.
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Mrs. Martha Hisington 09/09/2009 9:10:00 PM
I commend you Ms. Fenske for sticking with this story. I live in an area where there are many Latinos, immigrant and native born and we have very good relations with all, so it's not impossible to live in harmony. We are a little city with lots of agriculture still, and our sister city, just an imaginary boundry away is San Jacinto. I got the original link from SPLC Hatewatch to which I subscribe.
I wanted to understand just what this illegal campaign contribution story was about, so I went to most of the links to your previous coverage of it. I was appalled that it's been going on for YEARS with no indictments or arrests. The conflict of interest of all the lawyers involved is appalling. All the national news covers is Arpipao's "tent city" and the pink clothing he makes the inmates wear. As per usual, it's just the slightly humorus aspects of the Sheriff that gets covered. He's thouht of as a buffoon, but not the criminal he is. This has got to end.
The people of Arizona have become notorious for their hatred of Latinos, yahoos patrolling the border and probably killing undocumented immagrants, making it illegal for anyone to place essential water in the desert under the ridiculous idea that it is "poluting" the desert with "trash" and everyone legally packing guns on the streets. I guess the lawmakers there still think they're living in Tombstone in the 1800's.
I KNOW there are many educated, sophiticated people in Arizona. Why are the criminal authorities getting away with murder?
To get this national you should contact Rachel Maddow of MSNBC. She is very active in this area and I KNOW she would be interested in this story. You need to condense the facts of the case perhaps in a timeline format, and send it to her. Please keep going, getting to the bottom of all this corruption. The fact that the Republican National Commitee is involved makes this a NATIONAL story.
God bless you and keep you safe.
Mrs. Martha Hisington
Hemet, Ca
951-927-1737
P.S. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance to you, in any way. YoFj
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david saint 09/09/2009 7:26:00 PM
Chad, think i might have some relevant information to pass on to you before this meeting with joel. Anyway we can get in contact?
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Taxpayers 09/09/2009 1:54:00 PM
Sara Robinson,
We also have a group called F.U.C.K. Arpaio. The acronym, like SCA's, stands for nothing.
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jusice for all 09/09/2009 6:18:00 AM
well well well, shouldnt have hung around with those clowns, now your going to be the fall guy . when we all know who the real crooks are.
plea bargain sell em out. !!!!
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Tina 09/09/2009 4:34:00 AM
For Sara Robinson,
In the 7/23-29/09 New Times feature story on this matter ("The Ventriloquist's Dummies") writer Sarah Fenske expanded a bit on that SCA acronym, referring to court documents submitted by attorney Jeffrey Messing. (Due to County Attorney Andrew Thomas' conflict of interest in the case, he "spun the case off to" Messing.)
Here's what the article says:
"Messing pointed out that Fox and a colleague, executive chief Larry Black, had taken the time to register two different political action committees in the fall of 2006 -- and that those committees shared a post office box with SCA. Didn't that indicate they'd intended to get involved in the political process? Nope, Fox replied, the shared post office box was pure coincidence.
And just one month before that, Messing noted, Black had purchased the domain name www.sheriffscommand.com. Didn't that mean SCA stood for Sheriff's Command Association? Certainly not, Fox said. It stood for nothing. It could even stand, he suggested at one point, for 'second-chance apples.'"
So with that background, the meaning of the SCA acronym was obviously a logical conclusion drawn by the press and other media outlets. With 26 letters in the alphabet, what are the odds of coming up with those 3 letters in that order?
Why not ABC, LFQ, RCD, XYZ, etc.? In light of what subsequently happened with the money in the account, how, when and why it was spent, other speculators have suggested that SCA stands for "Sheriff's Campaign Account."
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Joel Fox 09/08/2009 11:17:00 PM
Sara Robinson from Bellingham,
While you question is quite suspicious, I'll answer it, (again) anyway...SCA stands for nothing. It is not an election committee for Arpaio, and never has been.
It was rumored to stand for Sheriff's Command Association, but this is not true, and should be evident by the fact that people who are not sheriff commanders donated money to the fund, and there is no association to speak of.
For whatever reason, Ray Stern is beside himself because SCA doesn't stand for anything, and is convinced that it must be an acronym, and that this acronym is the key to deciphering this mystery.
It's no mystery. It's not an acronym. It is simply what I decided to call this bank account when I set it up. SCA is the name of a bank account of which I am the only signatory.
I hope that answers your question.
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Sara Robinson 09/08/2009 10:15:00 PM
For those of us following this story from out of state: Could you please tell us what the acronym "SCA" stands for? (Note to editors: It should have been spelled out on first mention.) The context suggests it's some kind of election committee affiliated with Arpaio...?
Thanks.
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OMG 09/08/2009 12:28:00 PM
M & M predicts...
"Sheriff Joe will be found innocent of all charges"
I agree with you. It is time to stand up and say "by God, this isn't going to happen to Sheriff Joe." Next time, he needs to be found guilty!
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M and M 09/08/2009 5:55:00 AM
This is a deja vue Ron Carey v Janet Reno witch hunt.
The Feds will drag everyone through Court, smear Sheriff Joe and then..Sheriff Joe will be found innocent of all charges..
This kind of crap from the Democratic Reno/Holder Department of Justice is getting Old and Very Smelly
This happened to Carey but by god, it is time to stand up and Say..No, it isn't going to happen to Sheriff Joe!
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OMG 09/08/2009 4:05:00 AM
True Coz, but I think you know what I mean.
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Coz 09/08/2009 4:04:00 AM
I'm sure that's not always a good thing :-)
>>Becoming acquainted with you through your posts
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OMG 09/08/2009 3:23:00 AM
Guys,
I hope that this meeting is productive, civil and useful. I have found myself not wanting to further comment on Joel's involvement in this issue until after I hear some impressions from the meeting.
I did go back through history and read about your saga Coz. I found it to be disgusting. I was disgusted at the time, but am more disgusted now. As we all know, there were cases like your's before you and cases like your's that continue to this day. It baffles me that this Sheriff can continue to get away with stuff like this. It is like a bad dream that our voters are either sadistic or ignorant. I believe that most of them vote for a recognized name and not for any particular issue except illegal immigration. As a citizen of Maricopa County, I wish I could do more than vote against Joe and little Joe and try to raise awareness of AARPaio's misgivings.
Becoming acquainted with you through your posts and then reviewing your situation made it more personal for me. I hate thinking that anyone has to go through this crap.
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Joel Fox 09/08/2009 3:00:00 AM
Wednesday works for me, after 6.
Set it up, and call me whenever you like.
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Coz 09/07/2009 9:15:00 PM
Actually, made a mistake on my out of town dates, this week gone from Thursday to Sunday for race car testing, the following week gone from Thursday to Monday racing.
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Coz 09/07/2009 8:34:00 PM
Tommy just called me from Colorado.
He will be back Wednesday, how Wednesday evening sound ?
Otherwise, I will be out of town from Thursday until Monday racing in the Redline Time Attack in Nevada.
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Coz 09/07/2009 7:52:00 PM
That's what I thought, Thanks Mrs C...
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Coz 09/07/2009 7:52:00 PM
That's what I thought, Thanks Mrs C...
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Mrs. Tommy C 09/07/2009 7:44:00 PM
FYI,
TommyC is indeed out of town. He will return to the Phoenix area the afternoon of Wednesday, Sept. 9th. He's currently not able to access the internet.
I'll let him know you guys are attempting to set up a meeting and I'm certain he'll be in touch when able.
Thanks & enjoy the day.
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Coz 09/07/2009 3:44:00 AM
The tape your listening to is a Body Mic that Chief Deputy Sands is wearing the night he personally went out and served Jim Cozzolino, Tom Bearup and Mary Sterling for alleged campaign violations for contributing to Tom Bearups campaign.
The tape demonstrates the pure enjoyment Sheriff Arpaio and the current MCSO Administration Goon�s get from inflecting emotional pain and stress on others.
1. MCSO Chief Deputy Sands talking to the Van
Surveillance Driver.
2. MCSO Chief Deputy Sands talking to MCSO SGT. Rich
Burdon.
3. MCSO Chief Deputy Sands talking to Sheriff Joe
Arpaio
Direct Link: http://www.zshare.net/audio/65147969ca994454/
Depending on your connection speed, either let it completely load or down load it so you can listen to it without buffering.
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Coz 09/07/2009 1:46:00 AM
Joel,
At least you're in good spirts :-)
Considering all that's going on, that's a good thing.
Nothing to fear, but fear itself.....
No worries, no one is going to ambush any of us and no one has to ride in the trunk...I'm probably the only one that would fit anyway.
I think Tommy is out of town. When I saw him last week, I think he did mention being gone this weekend. I haven't heard from him since Thursday.
I'm sure we'll hear from him tomorrow some time, if not, Tuesday for sure. Then we'll set something up.
Enjoy what's left of the weekend.
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Joel Fox 09/07/2009 12:34:00 AM
It's late Sunday afternoon, and nuthin yet...I'm guessing somebody's out of town this weekend, or otherwise tied up. Too bad...I was kinda hoping to get it done quick, before you guys lost your nerve...(just kidding...lighten up).
Tell Tommy to check his email...I tried there, too, just in case the voice mail didn't work for some reason.
I hope you guys don't think I'm up to something, because I'm not. As the internet is my witness, all I wanna do is sit and chat (and maybe have a coffee). And if anyone I know tries to interfere with that, I'll be on your side, fending them off. I'm staking my honor, integrity, and credibility on it.
I've often thought that if people could just sit down and have a no goal civil discussion things might be a little less toxic. I don't think anyone will change their mind, but I think we'll all see each other a little differently, and that has to be a good thing.
So I'm ready whenever and wherever you are, as long as it's in the evening, after work. Hell, I'll even meet you somewhere, and then we can go somewhere else in your car, if that makes you feel better, as long as I don't have to ride in the trunk.
Oh, and can we finally put the whole "who's paying the attorney" thing to bed? Sarah already said she'll be combing the invoices with a fine tooth comb, and they get submitted to the County, not the SO, and the county is pretty friendly to Sarah, as long as she keeps bad mouthing Joe.
So, I hereby state, unequivocally, no taxpayer funds were harmed during the making of this legal action.
nuff said?
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Coz 09/06/2009 2:32:00 AM
I agree. If we meet, the discussion is abut SCA and not everything Arpaio and Hendershot have done for the last 16 years.
It's not a slug fest on Joel Fox for everything the two clowns above have done all these years.
That is not Joel Fox's fault.
>>I think I can see where this is going, and I'll have some stuff to talk about when we meet. But there is something you guys need to understand, that I've said before, but nobody seems to want to believe.
I don't know anything about a lot of the stuff you're talking about.
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azsunset1982 09/06/2009 2:25:00 AM
JOEL
I agree with you ( surprise surprise) that it should only be the 4 of you......Coz,Chad,TommyC and yourself that meet. But my concern is ( not that you would be the one to set this up ) a lot of ppl from MCSO read and blog here and " they" friends of Joe will raid that meeting. After all we know on how the Shurf is operating don't you think that is possible? I mean even you will have to agree the news hound will do anything to get publicity, and what better publicity to bust the 3 and as he can call you a rogue Cpt. Don't trust him as far as you can throw him and I believe you can't even pick Joe let alone Hendershott up!!!!!! Just be careful all of you!!!!!!! And to be honest ....what you have discussed in Detail is Not my concern but if the 3 ppl mentioned come back and say Joel has some legit arguments I for one will take them at their word without having to know the details.Fair enough?
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Joel Fox 09/06/2009 12:06:00 AM
Gizzardg...I will promptly delete any emails I get at work in reference to SCA. If you have something work related, feel free to email me, but I will not spend any work time on anything related to SCA.
As for your comments regarding Locksa, you're not making any sense at all. Why would he, of all people, have a list of 4 captains if my replacement comes about? What do you mean "replacement comes about"? Do you mean if I get transferred or fired?
If I am fired, I would imagine that a lieutenant would be promoted into my position...and I can be transferred at any time, and so could all the captains at MCSO, so we're all on a "replacement" list.
You're trying to pretend like you have inside info and create some kind of animosity amongst those of us at MCSO. You'll need to do a whole lot better than this.
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Joel Fox 09/05/2009 11:53:00 PM
I think I can see where this is going, and I'll have some stuff to talk about when we meet. But there is something you guys need to understand, that I've said before, but nobody seems to want to believe.
I don't know anything about a lot of the stuff you're talking about.
I spent most of my career in Lake Patrol, far away from anything going on downtown. When I promoted and got more administrative, I was really busy with my own stuff and didn't go around looking for what everyone else might be doing wrong. I had enough mess in my own house for that.
All I know about many things of the past is what I read in the paper, just like most of you.
If you want to know my opinion on some of that, I can do that, but I don't draw conclusions based on rumors.
I don't know either Arpaio or Hendershott very well, and speak to them very, very rarely. I do know that there are 3 or 4 former deputies who have accused Hendershott of some pretty terrible things, but that is only after they were disciplined. The discipline part never makes the story in the paper, because the papers have been against Arpaio since a couple years into his first term. This makes all the accusations against him suspect, and from what I have personally seen, he is a good guy...but again, that is very, very limited. My position is that I will not condemn a person based on rumors. I base my opinions on what I know, and treat people the way they treat me. Coz, I'd be interested in hearing that tape, too.
My point is that if you want to talk about SCA, I know all about it. If you want to talk about why your piss test came up screwy, I have no idea, and don't even know how I could find out. I've never worked a jail, don't know much about them, and try to avoid them whenever I can.
Of course, you don't work somewhere 20 years with your head in the sand either, so I do know about other stuff, especially if it is patrol or enforcement related. I can tell you that there has almost never been an accurate news report of anything that happens regarding MCSO, but if I know about it, I'll tell you about it.
I can assure you, I am not embarrassed about anything I have ever done, or been involved with, and I have no secrets (even though Ray insists that I do, simply because he doesn't already know everything...which makes one wonder why his opinions are so firmly planted, but I digress...).
I can also tell you that I have been an advocate for the sheriff's office the entire time I have worked there. Notice I did not say an advocate for the sheriff.
I do like Arpaio, both as a boss and a politician, and I've explained that a bit here before, and I'll go further into that if you like. I'm not suggesting that you agree with my opinion on the matter, but you should at least respect it, and I will do the same for you.
If you've paid any attention at all to what I've said, you'll notice that the reason I gave the money to the party was precisely because I knew there would be all sorts of allegations and innuendos announced by the press and others suggesting my support of the deputies was just hidden support for Arpaio. I do understand that many people believe what they read in the paper, and their opinions are thusly influenced, so I am not at all surprised by the reaction. But that doesn't make it right.
So, the three of you get together, pick a place and a time, and call me. Today is pretty well shot, so try to figure this out for tomorrow later afternoon. You can even call or send me a text with just enough notice to get there, and I'll show...whatever it takes so you're comfortable. I've got nothing up my sleeve, and it would be really foolish if I did. Whatever you think of me, I don't think foolish is part of it.
I prefer it stay the 4 of us (or less if somebody can't make it) but I don't really care except that too many people will be harder to accommodate and the conversation could get confusing trying to keep up with everybody. I don't think one more would make a difference, but be careful it doesn't get out of hand.
I'm waiting...
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Gizzardg 09/05/2009 11:46:00 PM
Joel, is your e-mail still J_Fox@MCSO.Maricopa.gov ? or don't you have a shop computer anymore? Locksa has a list of 4 Captains if your replacement comes about. Have you seen it yet?
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EnoughisEnough 09/05/2009 11:39:00 PM
Coz, thank you. I'll look forward to getting a copy. Perhaps you should put it on Youtube..let others know how to access it?
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Coz 09/05/2009 11:31:00 PM
I gave a copy to Sarah about a year ago...
I will give you a copy at the meeting, you can listen to it and comment on it as you see fit.
It would be better coming from others than it would be from me so no one thinks I'm making this stuff up.
It's pretty amazing stuff coming from what are suppose to be law enforcement officals representing the public.
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EnoughisEnough 09/05/2009 11:29:00 PM
Joel - can you assert for the readers here that your attorney is not being paid by county funds? It seems interestng that Wilinchik would represent a numnber of MCSO employees in this AG investigation and not find a way to include those services in the bill he hands MCSO every month. As I understand it, his firm has been paid over $488,000 this calendar year alone - and I would like to know, if you will, how the taxpayers can be sure that he's not billing our general fund - money the taxpayers cough up - for representation on a personal criminal probe. Can you shed light on that?
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EnoughisEnough 09/05/2009 11:18:00 PM
Coz,
Thank you for letting us know this exists. I would absolutely appreciate getting a copy on CD - and know that there are many others out there that would like to hear the "Real Truth Behind the Headlines" - perhaps it will shed some light for those who are not yet convinced that Arpaio is a total dirtbag and not worthy to hold a position of Sheriff. I can think of a few people right off the bat who would love to hear Arpaio in all of his glory boasting about crushing people. He's scum. Plain and simple. Have you offered this tape to the New times?
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Coz 09/05/2009 11:11:00 PM
EnoughisEnough,
I have no problem with anyone listening to the tape. In fact I transfered it to CD's and am giving copies to Chad and Tommy next time I see them, I can give one to you as well.
What is said on the tape during the conversation between Arapio, Burden and Sands is exactly what I said about them laughing about the misery they inflect on others and how funny they think it is.
Total malace and harassment.
The tape was made the night Sands went out and served Tom Bearup, Mary Sterling and me with election fraud papers for contributing to much to Tom Bearup.
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EnoughisEnough 09/05/2009 10:48:00 PM
Coz, I think some of us would be very interested in hearing what the tape says. Is is of a personal nature or could you share some of the tape with us? I certainly wouldn't ask to have you expose your own situation with regard to MCSO with strangers, but could you give us an idea of what the tape indicates?
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EnoughisEnough 09/05/2009 10:45:00 PM
Coz,
Is the tape of a personal nature that involves you? Would you be comfortable sharing some portions of the tape that are not personal or sensitive to you?
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Coz 09/05/2009 10:34:00 PM
No, Arpaio and Sands are exactly what they are made out to be by the media.
EnoughisEnough,
I have a 66 minute tape of Arpaio and Sands engaged in conversation, believe me, if you heard this tape, they are everything everyone says they are about being as evil as can be.
As far as you attending the meeting, I have no problem with it if Joel is ok with it. Once again, this is not a lynching of Joel Fox and none of us want this to turn into a circus.
A cusual get together is all this should be.
I think Joel should be given the chance to explain how he see's all this. maybe we have something to learn from him.
>>I am firmly convinced that there are very rotten aspects of MCSO and that the fish stinks from the head. Joel has noted that AARPaio is different as a person than as he is portrayed in the media, press releases, etc. I don't know exactly what that means
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Coz 09/05/2009 10:20:00 PM
Joel,
I react the way I do because I am a very passionate guy, as you will see. Truly, I am not a violent or dangerous person at all. I am not a fighter physically, and don't like violence if it can be avoided in anyway. But don't think for a minute I am a pussy....I will do whatever it takes to protect an innocent life in the blink of an eye, as I have done several times in my life already.
I've spent a good number of years helping people as a volunteer firefighter 1, Crew leader and now as an EMT and going on to Paramedic School.
I have many many friends that discuss my issues with MCSO with me. Many many close friends that I am blessed with that care much about me and my family. None of us have a problem discussing it and as a matter of fact, it helps. But no matter how many discussions happen, you cannot change what happened, only what happens next. I will never be a victim of MCSO again.
MCSO cost me over $100,000.00 with their bullshit, not something easily forgotten when your still paying off the debt created. So there is always something around to remind me of the Corruption Arpaio and Hendershott represent.
I agree, no innocent person deserves to be attacked, and not saying you, but it's something Arpaio and Hendershott do all the time. And that is what pisses me off. They are complete and utter slimeballs, as is Sands, MacInWeasel and several others in the command staff. If you can't see that, then you are lying to yourself and everyone one else.
No, no one can blame you for the corruption Arpaio and Hendershott are known for, that's their doing. Your involvement, if any is all anyone can hold you responsible for.
But at some point, I question the honor and the integrity of anyone that works for anyone who knows what's going on when the corruption is so blatant, then stands by and does nothing to stop it or expose it.
At what point are the do nothings as bad as those that do it.
You lay down with dogs, you get fleas.
Me personally, I have given up on the justice system. Far as I'm concerned, it's a joke. Why ? I saved a persons life that was being strangled while being pinned against the wall. I was charged with attempted murder by MCSO, the attacker was never charged at all even though the victim told MCSO and the MCAO what happened and how I saved their life. Did honesty, integrity and justice matter to MCSO and MCAO, hell no. Justice, what a fucking joke.
Yes, I have a family. A wife and 4 children. My oldest is in the Army. One of my sons works and races with me, my daughter just started pre-med at U of A. and my youngest is a senior in HS.
No matter what happens in my life anymore, that makes me as successful as I ever need to be.
Nobody I know is scared to be around me, in fact I am always surrounded by friends that care about me, my family and what happens to us. I am very blessed with many true friends who have stuck by me through many many years.
I'm not angry Joel, but I no faith anymore in a system that could care less about justice and allows the destruction of so many lives, as Arpaio and Hendershott have gotten away with for years.
You, sounding like you want people to believe you're an honorable guy, well then, you have to be able to see what's going on and if there is any honor about you, you cannot say what Arpaio and Hendershott do is representative of any justice system that serves the people with honor or integrity.
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EnoughisEnough 09/05/2009 10:04:00 PM
Joel,
Let me start off by saying that I am well aware of where you fit within the MCSO organization and will go as far as to say that I may even slightly understand your motivation to DO SOMETHING when this initial SCA issue was conceptualized. That is where you begin to lose me. Even healthy choices have to be weighed - and in your case this money that was donated to the party only went to feed the lion. Joe Arpaio doesn't need any more publicity. In fact, the less we hear about that arrogant thug the better most of us like it. I question why a man who must know SOME of what is rumored to be going around your agency would contribute to a cancerous lesion named Arpaio. As a matter of fact, deputies and detention officers are coming forward now complaining that they are owed back pay and blaming BOS for furlough days. Arpaio sits back and laughs and blames everybody else but himself - even though HE signed the budget and elected to use furlough instead of...perhaps cutting spending? I believe there are plenty of good folks working along at MCSO, but it's unfortunate that you have chosen to associate yourself with dishonest, abusive and corrupt guys like Arpaio and Hendershott. On a positive note, if NOTHING but time happens, Arpaio is 77 now. By the next "term" he would be 80 years old. Does he REALLY think that informed, rational voters want to see an 80 year old thug begin another 4 year term? If you are a decent, law abiding employee of Maricopa County, I would hope you would also see that the MCSO needs a total overhaul.
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Joel Fox 09/05/2009 9:50:00 PM
Chad, my phone number is on your answering machine at the office. I don't know if you have access to it now, but I would imagine you do. Nice Spanish, by the way.
I cleared off my 4 o'clock, so if something works this afternoon, I'm in.
Just trying to cool off the paranoia from some of the others.
By all means, pick the place, pick the table, I don't care. You see, I have nothing to hide, and my story never changes. The truth is the truth.
I'm also not a pawn, unless they've developed some hidden mind control stuff that I totally don't know about. I set up the account, and I think a lot of people were surprised when I gave the money to the party, including the party!
I cannot complicate matters for others that I have never met, never talked to, and don't know anything about.
And the part you really seem to have a hard time understanding is that Hendershott is not my Lord. He does not govern my every thought and movement. He might have asked me not to talk so much, but he hasn't even done that, and it's still up to me.
I do find it very telling that there is such an effort to dissuade such a thing. I have nothing to say in private that I haven't already tried to tell here. I think it might come across better verbally, with an interchange during a conversation, but there is nothing new.
And can you even imagine how it might look if I lured these guys into a meeting only to have them arrested in an employer sanctions raid??? Good heavens, you cannot possibly think that I am that stupid!
No, these guys have nothing to lose. They can just sit there, play like they are listening and agreeing, and then come tell all kinds of lies if they want, just like Ray does. I am the only one taking the risk, but I am willing to do that, if for nothing else to put some faces to these names that I have been bantering with all these months. I am almost certain that all of us would learn something before we are done, and that makes it worth it no matter what.
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EnoughisEnough 09/05/2009 9:44:00 PM
Chad,
Thank you for responding. Like some others I try to maintain civil diologue. I have not always been successful, and I attribute that to the in-depth knowledge that I have gained about Arpaio and Hendershott and the corruption within NCSO. I would sincerely like to contact you via the bar website. I'll give you my identity and the nature of the information I have obtained through my own employer. I believe you will understand once I contact you exactly why I, like others, want to see an end to the Arpaio/Hendershott/Thomas reality show sooner than later. With your permission, I'll contact you on Tuesday. I'm sure you'll find it interesting when I present some facts to you.
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OMG 09/05/2009 9:39:00 PM
Joel, Coz, et.al.:
If you do meet, I hope that it is a productive and civil meeting. I like a lot of what Joel says, but in my mind there are still unresolved SCA questions. In hindsight, I would guess that Joel may wish that he had not have gotten involved in this mess in the first place.
I am firmly convinced that there are very rotten aspects of MCSO and that the fish stinks from the head. Joel has noted that AARPaio is different as a person than as he is portrayed in the media, press releases, etc. I don't know exactly what that means, but it does concern me that the people vote on a vapor man rather than the man he is. For example, I wish that unconvicted persons in his jail were treated wtih greater dignity for some are factually innocent and some will be found not guilty. Failing to aggressively pursue criminal cases in the unincorporated parts of Maricopa County has no excuse. It may well have reasons. The bulk of Maricopa county voters are in incorporated areas where MCSO is redundant to the municipal law enforcement. Concentrating in municipalities is wrong when you have not done everything possible to serve those that have only MCSO as law enforcement. I am curious what Joel feels about these sorts of issues.
I don't feel ready to state that Joel should be locked up and relieved of his career over this and have stated that he is entitled to due process, just as all of us should be. I have stated that I believe him to be lying about certain aspects of the SCA affair. So far, I stand by those statements. I would really welcome some feedback that implies that I am more than likely wrong on my positions things. For these reasons, I have a wish that I would be joining this meeting. Maybe it would change my thinking. Maybe not.
This exchange today in settin up the meeting and hashing out details has, in my opinion, been healthy for all involved. I hope the meeting will have a good positive influence and increase understanding whatever the truth is.
I hope you 3 or 4 have a good meeting.
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Enoughisenough 09/05/2009 9:32:00 PM
Joel,
My comment about your "revelations" with regard to the SCA was intended to show that there are many others that you have involved, unilaterally or not, in this investigation. It was not your case in particular that I questioned you talking about, but the donors who are now going to be "on the fence" - and I mean outside donors. $25,000 is a lot of money, no matter who you are. What you say with regard to this case could, in fact, compromise people like Ellman, Rankin, the Courtesy Chevrolet folks, etc...couldn't it?
It is also curious that Hendershott has not issued a gag order on this where you are concerned - after all, since his donation is also being scrutinized, he will be clearly implicated in the violations of the campaign laws. Does he KNOW that you've been discussing these issues via blogs? If so, he's being awfully quiet about the whole thing. That in and of itself is very curious. Also, why hasn't Freeman, Black, Locksa or the others discussed their understanding of where THEIR money was being disbursed with such frankness? Are they all represented by the same lawyer?
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azsunset1982 09/05/2009 9:29:00 PM
Coz,Chad,TommyC and whoever else is going to participate in this meeting please make sure YOU pick the place and go there before the meting and check out the employee's and make sure the same people are there when you meet. Also you pick the table to ensure no recording device. I do not trust anyone from that Outfit....while I am also thinking Joel may just be man enough to come to the meeting I still don't trust this whole setup. His Lawyer should be jumping up and down to have his client go to a meeting such as this without representation especially with all the possible indictments hanging out there. Just be careful not that the place you meet will be " raided for Illegal's" while you all are there. I can just see it, get 3 for the price of one Raid. You know how they are, so cover your 6 please, hate to come in here and find you have been detained and then maybe even worse, subjected to Joe's favorite Past time " the Chair".
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Chad Snow 09/05/2009 9:24:00 PM
EnoughisEnough, I can't speak for Coz, Collins, or Fox, but I welcome you participating in any meeting we have as long as we know who you are. You have always had very intelligent, thoughtful comments on the blog and haven't engaged in the nastiness that others have. As much as I respect Ray and Sarah for their work on all things MCSO, I don't think it would be productive to have them there. I would seriously like to just meet Joel informally and see what makes him tick and get his side of the story. He's been decent enough to come on here and respond to all of us - I think he's earned that. I've noticed the rhetoric ratcheted down several notches even in the last few hours as we talk about the possibility of meeting!!!
My contact information is on the State Bar of Arizona website.
Chad Snow
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Coz 09/05/2009 9:21:00 PM
Yes, that is a possibility Joel, and one I am willing to accept and admit if that happens. I have been wrong before, haven't we all.
So will Tommy and Chad.
LOL...actually kinda of funny Joel...
No worries...
>>Perhaps they fear that once exposed to the truth, Coz and others might change their minds about me? He has said that he would approach it with an open mind, and I believe he would, so is that the fear?
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Joel Fox 09/05/2009 9:17:00 PM
Boy, this meeting is sure inspiring quite the hubbub!
I hope you find this as interesting as I do, Coz.
I find it very, very hard to believe that 4 indictments are coming soon. Indictments come from a Grand Jury, and Grand Juries have to meet, hear a case, and vote. It would be awful cocky to spread around pending indictments prior to the presentation to a Grand Jury. I think this comment was included simply to try and scare away Coz and the others.
First they try to scare me away, then they try to scare away the others....but who are "they"?
I know for a fact that Ray has posted before using the tag EnoughisEnough...and Sarah has posted before using the tag FormerRepublican...which is not to say that this is them, since anyone can enter any tag each time they post...it's just curious is all. Especially with the references to them.
Well, I'm not scared. And I don't think Coz, Chad or Tommy are either. So how about whoever you "they" people are that are so scared about this meeting, just pipe down, and let the grown ups play for a while, huh?
Chad, I'll be in touch.
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Chad Snow 09/05/2009 9:10:00 PM
Joel,
My experience is a little different from Coz's. I am a lifelong Republican and Arizonan, voted for Joe Arpaio four times, and used to buy into the bullshit about pink underwear, green bologna, chain gangs, etc. The more I dealt with the Maricopa County legal system, the more I sensed that something wasn't right at MCSO and MCAO. I asked around and found that 99% of the attorneys in Maricopa County think Andy Thomas is full of shit, and 99% of other law enforcement think Arpaio is. I read the New Times series last year and was shocked by what I read. When I read the East Valley Tribune series and the Goldwater Institute report, it only confirmed my suspicions. Arpaio's ambivalence about taxpayers' dollars and his sheer disregard for preventing real crime outrages me.
I have also seen through many of my clients the real life consequences of Arpaio's "crime sweeps". Families torn apart. Decent hard-working people's lives ruined. Children heartbroken. Dreams shattered. If I thought that Arpaio did it out of conviction or a sense of duty, I could at least respect that. But I know that he does it out of naked political expediency, and I that I abhor. I went to a Board of Supervisors meeting last September wanting to see what Maricopa Citizens for Safety and Accountability was about and was handcuffed and held for several minutes - for standing up at the end of the meeting!!! Randy Parraz was arrested and held in jail until that night for charges that are usually cited and released. Our firm represented him in those charges and I saw firsthand the lengths that Arpaio and Thomas are willing to go to to suppress any kind of dissent. The resources wasted on that one case shock the conscience.
I really believe your boss is evil, corrupt, a thug and a criminal. If I didn't have a wife, children, and a busy law practice, I would be Arpaio's worst nightmare. My wife begs me not to get involved because she has read what Arpaio does to those who speak out against him. (Like Coz, Lacey, Larkin, Tarr, Pochoda, Parraz, etc) That is BULLSHIT that a citizen should have that fear in what is supposed to be the most free country on earth!!! Don't you agree???
But my conscience won't allow me to be silent when I know what I now know. I keep thinking of that saying "the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." So I do what little I can do to spread the word.
I think in your heart of hearts guys like you, Trombi, and Locksa who were with MCSO before Arpaio are good guys, good law enforcement officers, and know what's going on. I hope that sooner or later, someone there will have a crisis of conscience and tell the truth about Arpaio and Henderschott. I know that would be hard to do in your situation. I would be glad to meet with you anytime. Dialogue is always good. I hope you can respect me for at least being out in the open about my feelings about Arpaio and keeping the rhetoric and name calling to a minimum. I'm an attorney licensed by the State Bar - easy enough to find me that way. Call me anytime and we'll set up lunch or dinner.
Chad Snow
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EnoughisEnough 09/05/2009 9:06:00 PM
Coz,
Thank you for responding. I agree that Joel may be, in fact, a pawn. But if he is, he needs to come clean about it and let the cards fall where they may. If Hendershott is involved (gee...go figure) then I hope Hendershott is the FIRST one to take the subpoena. My total disgust with MCSO is based on my firm belief that Hendershott is a corrupt, lying, ruthless and moronic joke and Arpaio is nothing short of an unimpressive, egomaniac with absolutely nothing to offer the citizens of Maricopa County. His legacy will be bathed in scandals and lawsuits. Both these jerks are nothing more than illiterate thugs. The streets are full of them. The only thing that separates these two from a street thug is that they're collecting a pay check - and nice perks, on us.
I have a lot more to say on this issue of corruption. I have been made aware of even MORE corruption on the part of these guys, and I guess we'll all learn the details in the near future. It just keeps getting better and better - and we'll just have to wait for the next shoe to drop.
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Joel Fox 09/05/2009 9:04:00 PM
I find it particularly interesting that people who have posted very negative comments about me, jumped to all sorts of nefarious conclusions, and attacked me both personally and professionally all of a sudden care about whether I potentially ruin my case?
I know that they would really enjoy seeing me lose my case, so surely they are not afraid I'll mess this up...so what are they afraid of? Why would there be people, obviously anti Arpaio, that don't want me to meet with Coz? Or Tommy or Chad, for that matter?
Perhaps they fear that once exposed to the truth, Coz and others might change their minds about me? He has said that he would approach it with an open mind, and I believe he would, so is that the fear?
How petty...let Coz think for himself.
And I've been trying to tell you folks from day one, Arpaio and Hendershott are not involved (except for Hendershott being a donor). The money was mine. I make the decisions. I don't need permission. I didn't get it before I sent it to the party in the first place, and I'm surely not going to ask for it now. This actually brings up a good point: committees suck. Nothing ever gets done because too many people have to approve. On a larger scale, it's called government bureaucracy. I hate it. Everything should be slim and trim, with a single point of accountability. And that's how it is here, and it's me.
Coz,
I'm sure we have a lot more in common than differences. This is actually true of all people...but some seem to like to focus more on what is different and less on what is the same. It's a poisonous attitude.
You need to remember one thing though...I don't know anything about you, other than what I have read in the comments you have posted online here and elsewhere. I don't know about your past. I have a kind of sketchy, general idea of your experiences with MCSO, but that is based more on New Times articles than anything else. I hate to break it to you, but you are not a topic of conversation at MCSO. No one has told me any stories about you, ever. I don't have any preconceived notions. I don't even know what you look like. And I certainly have never seen a file on you, or anyone else, for that matter.
And I think I do understand where you're coming from. Remember, I know what it's like to believe you are innocent and be subjected to a search warrant anyway. I know your story is much longer, but my story has just begun. We'll see who's is worst in the end, maybe.
The one difference I do see between us is that I do not react to this invasion of my civil rights the same as you do. I do not hold the members of the AG's office in any contempt. I believe, in their minds, they are doing their jobs, and doing it well. The same is true of County Elections. I would never wish that any of them would be subjected to what I have been through. No innocent person ever deserves to be attacked, no matter what they have done in the past, and especially no matter what their boss has done in the past.
I do believe in Justice, but the greater part of it is mercy, not violence. Because when the violence takes over, it inspires hatred, and that hurts nobody but you.
That's the anger I'm talking about, Coz. The poison that kills a person's heart. I'm sure you're generally a really nice guy. You probably have a family. They surely love you, and you are surely good to them. But I'd also bet there's a topic that none of your friends really like to bring up around you...times when you seem so angry the people you love aren't really sure what you might do...and they're scared.
That's what I mean by angry, Coz...it's killing you, and you don't even know it. And if nothing else, when we meet, maybe you can get some of that out.
I hope so.
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Coz 09/05/2009 8:54:00 PM
EnoughisEnough,
You bet.
We don't want to meet with Joel to string him up, we want to meet with Joel to see what kind of person he really is and give merit to anything he has to say.
Who knows, maybe Joel got caught up in this bullshit and before you know it, it was too late and now he's taking the fall for others and shouldn't be.
It is not unresonable to be set up by Hendershott like this, he's done it several times to several others. Who knows, maybe Joel is just a pawn in all this. And if that's the case, then that sucks too. We'll see.
None of us have any legal representation in the case, so whatever we discuss is between us. It's all hearsay what we discuss and it will stay that way.
If anything is to be said after the meeting about the meeting, then it will be agreed on at the meeting by all of us.
That is the fair and honorable thing to do as well. If we talk honor, we have to walk the talk otherwise we are no better than those we accuse of being slimeballs.
We don't want the meeting to become a circus. Just 4 guys getting together for coffee and discuss WTF is going on.
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EnoughisEnough 09/05/2009 8:49:00 PM
Sarah Fenske and Ray Stern have dogged this story from the beginnng. They have historical information and documents that I'm sure we have not seen. Would it be helpful if Sarah and Ray participated in the discussion? That would certainly eliminate any backtracking on this SCA issue. Sarah could recite the AG's allegations and probable cause issues in her sleep. She is also very much familiar with the other issues that have dogged the Sheriffs office of late. Issues like abuse of power, favoritism, nepotism, trips, scandals, etc. Just a thought.
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EnoughisEnough 09/05/2009 8:40:00 PM
Chad,Coz, etc,
I also would have liked to have actually participated in any discussions that would shed some light on this organization and what I believe is total corruption within it. I am skeptical, however, of the entire command staff, including hendershott and arpaio. History has a way of repeating itself, and the current scenario that is MCSO causes me to believe that Hendershott and Arpaio are inherently evil. I find it absolutely impossible to believe that an organization as top heavy and aggressive as MCSO did not plan, participate in or orchestrate this entire SCA deal. Arpio benefitted - Hendershott keeps his job and fat pay - commanders are elevated because of their loyalty. All the while Arpaio and Hendershott become increasingly abusive and aggressive in their dealings with the public at large. Whether Joel Fox actually did this alone or not will be for the courts to decide but one thing is sure - if he is an honest, upright guy he's working in the wrong place. Arpaio is a swarthy, bullish and morally bankrupt individual. Hendershott has become living proof of a system that is broken. He should have been removed fron his position long ago. What stops me from asking to be included in the discussion with Fox is that, if people who SHOULD know are correct, indictments are expected soon for at least 4 folks at MCSO. I certainly would not want to be dragged into any of that BS to be questioned about what was said to me regarding the entire activity.
That being said, if others choose to participate in the discussions I would welcome your feedback. Will you guys do that for me?
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Coz 09/05/2009 8:36:00 PM
Joel,
Just talked to Chad, still waiting to hear from Tommy.
Chad will post here in a minute or 2.
We'll have you contact Chad to set up a time and place convienent to the 4 of us. Where and when should not be posted here.
Chad and I agree, we want to hear what you have to say and we will listen with open minds. We also agree that whatever is disucussed, remains with us and we will not use this discussion to violate any trust between us.
We both agree, you really don't sound quite as evil as Hendershott or Sands, nothing could ever be as evil as they are, and that's makes us very curious about who you really are and what you got yourself mixed up in.
We do respect you for you're willingness to sit down face to face with us.
That does say something about your character.
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FormerRepublican 09/05/2009 8:10:00 PM
Joel,
Before you go meet with folks and discuss the money that was collected by various individuals and turned over to the Republican party, don't you think you should check with the donors and find out how they feel about you being their "spokesman" when they are likely entangled knee deep in investigations? From what we can tell, the investigation into this SCA matter reaches a number of your command staff as well as the Chairman of the GOP, Steve Ellman, the Courtesy Chevrolet folks, etc. Since they are likely to be impacted by your overall truthfulness as to what the intent of the money is, I'd be rather ticked off if I were steve ellman or some of these other high dollar donors having you discuss my contributions without the benefit of counsel. That's where I feel YOU are not acting rationally. You have, by your own admittance, involved many people in this activity. Now you are venturing out on your own and attempting to save your image by discussing a case where indictment is still a real possibility? Indictment of not only you but others you accepted donations from. I would have to question your judgement on that one.
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Cindy Weiss 09/05/2009 8:04:00 PM
Joel Fox - are you purporting that you are interested in meeting with folks on this site to discuss the SCA issues and the Sheriff's Office and you HAVEN'T discussed this with Hendershott or Arpaio? Don't you realize that the AG's office and other investigators often read these discussions?
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Coz 09/05/2009 7:57:00 PM
Me too Joel, seriously.
If I believe you're right, I would be willing to stand up for you as well. That's how I work and also feel would be the right thing to do.
I'm not as angry as you think, just very disgusted in Bozo Joe, Hendershott, Sands, MCSO in general, and what it should and doesn't represent.
I actually do want to meet you. We might actually have more in common than you think and I would like to hear what you have to say with an open frame of mind.
What you think you know about me, who and what I've done in life are 2 different things. Not even Bozo Joe was able to find out what I've done law enforcement wise when he tried to find out by contacting the Feds about me. They Feds neither comfirmed or denied my involvement. That should tell you something. Look in my file, you'll see.
I know Tommy and Chad and know they will also approach this with the same additude.
I do have to admit, I respect you for your willingness to meet.
I am trying to get a hold of Chad and Tommy.
I will set something up, it won't be today though, I don't think.
I will get back to you..and I do look forward to meeting you with an open mind.
Just maybe we can clear the air on some things.
I'd say to bring Hendershott with you, but none of us could afford the food bill.
>>And I promise, all I have in mind is a friendly chat. I'm interested to hear where this deep seated hatred comes from, and I'll bet I can open your eyes to a lot you don't know about MCSO.
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Joel Fox 09/05/2009 7:42:00 PM
Whoopsie...we were posting at the same time...
The problem you seem to have is this:
"I" am not "You people".
You see this is what the Nazis actually did...they thought all Jews were the same and deserved to be killed. The KKK thought the same about African Americans. Throughout all of history prejudice and hatred have inspired the exact same process to determine who should live and who should die that you do when you include me in with your all encompassing "you people".
And THIS is the point of civil rights, human rights, and just plain common decency. The things you say were deprived of you, that you now wish upon me because I am magically included (in your mind) with "you people".
It is hypocrisy to denounce what happened to you, and then wish it upon others. You are either pro civil rights, or you are not. Civil rights are not even civil if they are selectively applied.
But we can talk about this more later.
Sorry to disappoint you yet again, but I wouldn't have any idea where to find your "file". Nor would I have any idea where to find your number, unless it's in the phone book. I'll try that in a bit, if I don't hear from you.
Otherwise, post it here, find my number here, or get it from Ray...he knows it.
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Coz 09/05/2009 7:40:00 PM
BTW, Yea, so what....
Many of us feel this way, that you can believe.
>>And just to make it crystal clear, you say this in a public forum: "I sincerely hope you continue to experience the pain and suffering many of us had to go through right along with what our families had to endure."
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Coz 09/05/2009 7:31:00 PM
Joel,
First off, expression and how I express myself is not going off the deep end. If I was off the deep end, you'd be watching it on CNN.
It's called passion and tenacity to do the right thing Joel. I�m sure you used to know what doing the right thing was all about before you sold your soul to Hendershott.
Second, I am self employed. I work from my home and can spend as much time in a day or as little time in a day I feel like working and making my $55.00 an hour.
I can spend as much time or as little time as I feel like on the internet too. I believe this is called freedom. But if it makes you feel better, I can ask you how much time I am allowed a day on the internet a day by your standards and try to adhere to it.
"You People� started this fight with me 14 years ago and violated just about every civil and constitutional right I have since then. You fucked with me, my family and then tried to set me up with phony drug test and put me in prison for 8 years. You fucking right I take that personal. It�s a good thing there are laws in place to protect you slimeballs, otherwise this would have been over long ago.
As far as I'm concerned, the fight will never end until �You People� are brought to justice legally in a court of law for all the corruption Bozo Joe, Hendershott and the rest of �You People� represent, and the many other things Bozo Joe and Hendershott have done that would have had anyone else in jail for many years.
Now if I was a Bozo Joe Arputo ass kisser for the last 14 years and bending over for Bozo Joe and Hendershott like so many of �You� Goons do, you wouldn't have a problem with any of it, now would you.
The problem is with Bozo Joe Arputo and �You� Goons, you just hate the truth being told about your corruption. You have spend many years hiding the truth and crafting your lies and now it's all coming to the surface, and you people just can't handle being exposed for what you really are. It pisses you off and it�s got you Goons scared.
How�s it feel to live in fear ?
The truth is what it is, not that you or the Goons would ever tell the truth about anything, as we've seen for many years. MCSO has lied so much, you don�t even know what the truth is anymore Joel. You have you�re head too far up Bozo Joe�s and Hendershott�s ass to ever see the light of day anymore.
You can't stop the truth from being told Joel, and the days of "You People� hiding behind your bullshit is over. People are finally waking up to the corruption Bozo Joe, Hendershott and you Goons are all about.
Tt's about fucking time and well deserved.
This is not Nazi Germany where MCSO can just run over anyone they please when ever they please. Although it's what they've been doing for years. The worm is turning on MCSO and I will continue to express myself and point out all the corruption that has gone on far to long with MCSO every chance I get whether �You People� like it or not.
I will continue to say it in a public forum because unlike you, I have nothing to hide and don't have to hide who I am.
I'll say it to your face, Bozo Joe's face, Hendershotts face or any of the other Goons face's as well.
I'm not afraid of �You People�. �You People� are nothing more than chicken shit punks that run in packs like gang bangers trying to intimidate all those that don�t agree with your bullshit and the lies you tell. �You People� are nothing but Corrupt Dirty Cops. The only difference between �You People� and criminals is you �You People� carry badges.
�You people� , admit it Joel, be honest for once in you�re life, are slimeballs, it's a simple well known fact to anyone with a brain.
So yes, I think it's very appropriate �You� Goons suffer the same suffering you have put on so many others for many, many years. I believe it's called turn about is fair play.
It never ceases to amaze me that �You People� at MCSO can cause so much damage to others with so much ease, and then cry foul when it comes back full circle on you.
Too funny...what punks �You People� are.
Anger issues, LOL...so if I say what I feel and continue to point out the corruption MCSO is filled with, it's anger issues ?...Come on Joel, you can do better than that. You�re not even close to what I feel or think.
I will get hold of Tommy and Chad and set something up. I'm sure they would like to meet you as well...
>>I don't have any goons, or wires, or hidden cameras, and I don't even know where a surveillance van could be found, let alone bring one.
Right........like I believe that.
If you want, I can bring the bug MCSO's Drivinghawk and Burden planted in my house when they raided it, we can use it if times to short for you to check one out from Hendershott or Sands.
>>In fact, lets do it today. That way you can be pretty sure that I wouldn't have time to organize any of that stuff, even if I wanted to (which I don't). The sooner the better.
I'll see what I can do.
>>Lookin' forward to it.
I'll bet you are....
BTW, check my MCSO file, you should be able to find my number, feel free to give me a call.
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Joel Fox 09/05/2009 7:31:00 PM
The day is wearing on, and time is running short...I have a commitment at 4, so if anything's gonna go today, make it quick.
Otherwise, just pick a time and place, and I'll do everything I can to be there.
Sunday afternoon and Monday morning work for me too, or any other late evening after that.
And I promise, all I have in mind is a friendly chat. I'm interested to hear where this deep seated hatred comes from, and I'll bet I can open your eyes to a lot you don't know about MCSO.
I'm the one with a lot to lose here...you can come back and say anything you want about me...and if I lie about anything, or turn out with some secret ulterior motive, my credibility would be justifiably shot.
Hope to see you soon.
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Joel Fox 09/05/2009 5:30:00 PM
Coz,
When you start a phrase with "you people", you've gone off the deep end.
When you spend 12-18 hours a day online writing negative things all about one other person, you've gone off the deep end.
And when you do both of those things for 12 years straight...you've gone off the deep end.
And just to make it crystal clear, you say this in a public forum: "I sincerely hope you continue to experience the pain and suffering many of us had to go through right along with what our families had to endure."
I'm not saying you're crazy, or nuts, or even that you should be locked up...I'm saying you've got some anger issues, and like I've told you several times, you'd do well to address them.
And I would just love a chance to meet with you and talk about it. And you can bring Tommy and Chad along with you, too.
I don't have any goons, or wires, or hidden cameras, and I don't even know where a surveillance van could be found, let alone bring one.
In fact, lets do it today. That way you can be pretty sure that I wouldn't have time to organize any of that stuff, even if I wanted to (which I don't). The sooner the better.
If you can find my phone number, call me...or I'll check back here in a bit.
Lookin' forward to it.
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Coz 09/05/2009 9:04:00 AM
I may be in the deep end, but at least I can tread water...
Tell me Joel, do you have that sinking feeling ?
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Coz 09/05/2009 7:15:00 AM
Ok Fox,
Since you're feeling so friendly...fair enough.
Having never met the man, we should all know you can't judge a book by it's cover.
How about You, Chad, Tommy & I hook up somewhere for coffee and we talk for awhile like civil adults.
No Goons, no wires, no hidden camera's, no relative that drives the MCSO surveilence van, just us, 4 ameigo's.
Up for that ?
>>So why would you hate a guy you've never even met?
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Coz 09/05/2009 7:02:00 AM
Hey Chad,
Did you know I fell off the deep end years ago ?
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Coz 09/05/2009 6:19:00 AM
LOL...you have no idea what the deep end really is, do you Fox...
If I had gone off the deep end, Bozo Joe Arputo would have been gone long ago. Not fiction, fact. You jerk offs for 12 years now have been saying I went off the deep end and tried to sell that bullshit to others including a Superior Court. Funny thing is, no one listened then and no one is listening to the MCSO bullshit now.
Tell me Bozo Joe Jr, have I ever done anything to Bozo Joe, other than point out the truth about his, yours and the rest of the Goon's widespread corruption in media and on a website ?
You need to find a new line because the old one is as full of bullshit as you are.
You slimeballs at MCSO have a real stinch about you and finally everybody in Maricopa County is starting to smell the stinch. I've smelled it for 12 years...And that stench is coming from the Wells Fargo building and it an't roses Fox.
You bet I dislike Bozo Joe Arputo, Hendershott, Sands, MacInWeasel and the rest of the slimeballs that have no respect for civil rights, constitutional rights or just plain old human rights. You people suck at it, your cruel & sadistic. You people have the mentality that pain and suffering of others is funny as long as it's not happening to you.
You people make a mockery of honesty, integrity and honor. None of you Bozo's should be carrying a badge, let along representing law enforcement in any capacity. None of you are fit to be a security gaurd at Walmart for that matter.
If MCSO is any represntation of where law enforcement is headed, there will be no such thing as law enforcement, only a fight for survival against law enforcement.
Those in the command staff at MCSO, you included, are a disgrace to law enforcement everywhere. How you people look yourselves in the mirror everyday is beyond me. Honor...you fucking people don't even know the meaning of honor.
As the saying goes, some people are only alive because it's against the law to kill them. So you see, I have a lot of respect for the law, and the laws were even written to protect all the slimeballs everywhere, including the ones at MCSO.
I have lived the nightmare of Bozo Joe Arputo myself, along with the Savilles, The Crenshaws, the Wilsons and several others who have become friends over the years. I have seen first hand the damage the Goons have done and the pain they caused.
Bozo Joe Arputo and you Goons have destroyed many, many lives in your wake. All while people just like you in the command staff watched and I'm sure laughed about it along the way. Big joke....until it's you.
I have no respect for you or people just like you at MCSO.
You're just getting a taste of what I and others have been through...
I sincerely hope you continue to experience the pain and suffering many of us had to go through right along with what our families had to endure.
Karma is a bitch, isn't it Fox.
You don't know shit about going off the deep end Fox.
Not yet anyway..
Your just a spun corrupt cop and Bozo Joe Arputo follower that is about to be thrown to the wolves, and just to stupid to see it.
>>We both know Coz fell off the deep end years ago.
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Joel Fox 09/05/2009 5:05:00 AM
Chad, I think I did answer your questions.
My bank statements are titled SCA, the checkbook says SCA, it is just SCA. It most certainly does not stand for Sheriff's campaign account. At first, I thought of it as a group for command level officers of MCSO but after I got donations from people outside MCSO, I couldn't really call it anything. Seriously, it is just SCA and has always just been SCA. I wanted to call it MCSA, but that one was already taken. :-(
I thought I explained why it took so long to release the names, but maybe that isn't really what you were asking. You think I should have released the names right away, before I started my appeal?
No, I wouldn't do that, because by that time the media had already started saying SCA paid for those attack ads, and if I released the names of the donors, they would be drug through the mud and accused of paying for those ads when they really had no idea that I was giving money to the Republican Party, and certainly no idea that they were going to make those ads.
I did not want them to suffer for a decision that I made, but it ended up that way, anyway. Actually, I heard from several of the donors during the process, and they told me to just release their name. None of them ever communicated to me that they wanted their name withheld.
But I made the decision without their input, and I felt, and still feel, that if there is a price to pay, then I will pay it.
There is no quid pro quo, nothing (except for grief) given in return.
Now that I have entertained you, maybe you can give a little quid pro quo yourself...what's your beef? I know why Coz hates Arpaio; I know why Sarah, Ray and the NewTimes hates Arpaio; and I know why most of the others do to, but I don't understand what spurs you on. Is this all because you supported Saban and your guy lost? Or is it because you believed all that trash from the unions? You didn't figure out that gerberry and culhane had ulterior motives, did you? Well they did. They cared so much about the deputies and officers that they both promptly left. Neither of them ever cared about anyone as much as they cared for themselves.
You seem like a decent guy, too. I'd bet we have more in common than we do differences. We both know Coz fell off the deep end years ago. We both have a passion for the law. We both have hot wives (nothing personal...I'm just taking your word on it).
So why would you hate a guy you've never even met?
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Chad Snow 09/05/2009 4:24:00 AM
Joel,
I sincerely appreciate your responses. However, you didn't answer all my questions: surely you know what SCA stands for. Does it stand for Sheriff's Campaign Account? Why the reluctance to reveal that? And you didn't answer why you waited to disclose names. I guess it's fair that you don't have to answer for Arpaio's real estate dealings, but I find it hard to believe that there was no quid pro quo for the Ellman and Courtesy (and out of state LLC) donations.
The thing is, you don't seem like an evil man like Arpaio, Henderschott, and Sands. You seem like a decent guy in over your head. I guess we'll sit back and let the justice system run its' course. Thanks again for the responses. Time to go brood....
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Joel Fox 09/05/2009 3:56:00 AM
I'm sure that this will just inspire more comments about my garrulousness (if that's even a word) but I really don't want to ignore any of you. My apologies in advance for the length.
David Saint, I have no idea what you are talking about, and I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am being asked questions, I have whined quite a bit about media inaccuracies, so now it is time for me to put up or shut up...and I am putting up. You can believe whatever you want. All I want to do is give you the opportunity to believe in the truth.
Tina/FormerRepublican/Sarah: it is more than pitiful to praise yourself on your own blog anonymously.
Several of you: If you want to make this about Arpaio's financial disclosure forms and the Stapley investigation, I suppose we could, but I thought this was all about election law...
Part of the difficulty you all seem to be having is that you interweave SCA with Sheriff Arpaio, but there is no connection whatsoever, except that we both work for MCSO. You are taking for granted a connection that does not exist.
Nevertheless, how ludicrous would it be for Arpaio to investigate himself? If he did, you would criticize him for whitewashing, so don't criticize him for not doing it. The same is true of the suggestions that Chief Hendershott should investigate his involvement in SCA through MACE. I'm pretty sure that Hendershott would know whether he was materially involved or not, and since he isn't, there is no corruption. Even if he was, you would cry foul (and rightfuly so) if he decided to investigate himself.
Your blind hatred of Arpaio prevents you from seeing the obvious contradictions and hypocrisy of your attacks.
I haven't seen Arpaio's financial disclosure statements and I, unlike most of you, would rather not comment on things I know nothing about.
And I'm not "blaming reporters" for any records. I am pointing out to you, the commenters and readers here, that a reporters opinion of what records might contain is a long ways from actual records and competent legal analysis. Just because a reporter says that something is wrong, doesn't mean that there is actually something wrong. Be suspicious if you like, but condemning a person you know nothing about is a far cry from mere suspicion.
Skeptic, the concepts of reasonable cause, reasonable suspicion, probable cause, preponderance of the evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, etc, are all collectively referred to as "burdens of proof". It is a level of factual information required to establish a particular course of action. Putting these principles into action has been the source of many legal debates and US Supreme Court Decisions. I suggest a google search for "burden of proof" which should lead you to a wikipedia page that has a pretty good outline.
OMG, you assume that my account was co-mingled. It is true that the standard for political committees is that funds are co-mingled, but I never thought I was a political committee. And the point here is not whether or not Hendershott's money went to the party. It would be very difficult to prove either way. The point is that this is the only thing anyone has every been able to point to that supports their accusations that I have lied. Ray said it first, and the rest of you have blindly repeated it, as if it were an established fact. But the fact is, I have not lied. Perhaps we disagree on how personal bank accounts are managed, but that is all that there is...a disagreement. Because of this disagreement, and for no other reason, you and many others have called me a liar.
Chad, as for your questions:
1. What does SCA stand for?
Currently, it stands for nothing. The donors were not all sheriff commanders, so it can't hardly be called Sheriff's Command Association, now could it?
2. Has the MCSO ever done business with or given a contract to Steve Ellman or Courtesy Chevrolet?
I really don't know. I don't think Steve Ellman has any businesses that the county might contract with, either. Maybe Courtesy...I don't know. They certainly don't have any contracts on purchases that I have ever been involved in. Besides, procurement rules are very strict, and there are county finance people that oversee it all. If you're suggesting some impropriety in purchasing contracts, you're welcome to see all the public records at the county, and I think it's even on their website. Bring a lunch.
3. Why hasn't MACE started an investigation of the SCA?
Because it would be ridiculous. The accusations of a whitewash alone would make it foolish. If you believe that Arpaio and Hendershott are not involved, there's no charge of corruption to investigate, so presumably, you are suggesting that Arpaio and Hendershott investigate themselves. This kind of question just shows that you will criticize MCSO and anything to do with MCSO no matter what.
4. If all was on the up and up, why did you obfuscate and delay for 9 months before coughing up the names of the donors to SCA? And then only did so under the threat of a $315,000 fine?
I didn't obfuscate and delay for 9 months. This has been asked and answered numerous times. I was almost immediately accused of being a political committee and illegally assigned a $315,450.00 fine without any investigation and I appealed the order, as is my right to do. The judge ruled against me, oddly assigning the burden of proof to me, but still, I attempted to comply with the judge's order rather than continue to fight it. Elections messed up in their order, though, and didn't actually ask for the names...they completely skipped the section of the statute that requires a committee to keep the names of donors, but then claimed that another section also required me to submit names to them, which is simply not true. Rather than file a false report, I appealed the decision to Superior Court, which again is my right, but I decided it just wasn't worth the time and the effort to continue, and frankly, I was a bit overwhelmed navigating the court system, so I offerred to settle with county and they accepted. I was not under threat of a huge fine, and I made the offer to them, not the other way around. The length of time that passed is only a function of how long it takes to get through court. I didn't decide what date my hearings would be on.
If you actually want to know why it took so long, it is more because the county tried to impose the ridiculous fine of $315,000, which Judge Shedden agreed was illegally applied. The compliance order issued demanded not just the names of donors, but a fine of $315,450.00. I don't know about you, but I don't have that kind of money. I had no choice but to appeal, or pay the fine. Just giving them the names would not have settled it. They wanted the fine, too.
I would think that a lawyer would understand the accused's right to a hearing. I would also think that you would not want to interfere with that right, but it seems you are suggesting that even thought I think I am innocent, I should just do what the nice government tells me to do. For a brooding liberal attorney, you sure are inconsistent.
5. Why doesn't Arpaio want the public to know about where he owns commercial property?
This is one of those questions like "when did you stop beating your wife?". Regardless, I don't know anything about Arpaio's financial disclosure forms, except that the NewTimes wrote some articles about 4 or 5 years ago making accusations that never materialized into anything, which I'm sure you will say is because everone is afraid of him.
6. Are you categorically denying that you had any knowledge that the SCA funds would be used to finance the anti-Saban ads?
I am categorically and in every other way denying that I had any knowledge that the Republican Party would finance anti-Saban ads. I'm not just denying, but I know for a fact that SCA funds were never used to finance anti Saban ads. This was proven during my hearing and noted in the Judge's order, but the press doesn't like this fact, so they just ignore it so they can further manipulate you. Jeff Messing wanted to introduce the ads as evidence, but was never able to because they were irrelevant.
Actually, this non existent connection between me and those ads is what spurs on most of the accusations against me, but that connection has already been proven to be false.
Yes, I know the search warrant talks about probable cause to believe that earmarking occurred, but that was 6 months ago, and probable cause is just a little bit more than a suspicion. Probable cause is justification to investigate, but it doesn't mean that something is true, or even that actual evidence exists to support it. There was no earmarking, and my money was returned to me. Randy Pullen testified that he would have made the ads with or without my money, and had more than enough in the many accounts the party has.
Now, I've answered your questions. I'll bet it doesn't shut you up, you continue to troll around these comments, and you continue your pious verbal assaults on everything MCSO. What do I win?
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Tina 09/04/2009 6:55:00 PM
This is all so incredible. Joel Fox's pride in being compared with G.Gordon Liddy took the cake. (Yes, those are known statements by Liddy quoted above.) Chad Snow, save those beautiful 6 questions for Fox, repeat them again, when he again starts spouting off all his denials after the next article on this topic.
There have really been excellent comments here. People paying attention because they care selflessly and are rightfully alarmed at the corruption and abuses.
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david saint 09/04/2009 6:32:00 PM
Joel,
First, the only thing you have in common with Liddy is being the fall guy.
Second, quit trying to sell us your bs because were not buying it.
Third, the abuse of power against critics isnt fiction, isnt some conspiracy, its fact...I know it is, and not from new times, not from the az republic either...
Fourth, your explanations about Larry Black not being involved are proven false by the evidence so far released to the public..what else there is remains to be seen, but im sure its just as damning.
Lastly, you dont have to convince me, coz, tommy, OMG, etc..you have to convince a jury of this, and i almost promise you they will not be swayed from what ive heard so far. You can try the "its all made up by reporters with a grudge" routine, but again i doubt they will buy it.
Pullens recent claims of malfeasance by the AG, after its known the AG is investigating him on this matter, just screams "im scared" by Pullen. If he is scared, you should be too. This isnt one of those typical situations either where Thomas can help the cover up. In fact, his smartest move is to go after all of you and clean house. His only other option is to sit back and watch you all fall. Theres no way he will ever win another election, much less for AG, if he even is remotely detected to be trying to cover it up...and you know what im talking about.
So, good luck to you sir.
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Coz 09/04/2009 4:17:00 PM
Would be interesting to see what's on the computer they seem to be so worried about :-)
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OMG 09/04/2009 4:11:00 PM
So Wilenchik is fighting to get Fox's computers back. Is he representing Fox in this or is he representing MCSO? One of the computers was apparently a work computer. Can Fox's interests be harmed that much by the seizure of the work computer. It seems odd that the attorney typically representing MCSO, the county's All-In parther in MACE is representing a potential MACE target, perhaps representing both interests at the same time.
Would anybody but me suspect that the billing proportions will be suspect as a minimum concern?
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Chad Snow 09/04/2009 2:46:00 PM
OMG, Cindy Weiss, Enough and Former Republican, if Thomas conflicts himself out of the prosecution on this case, I nominate all of you to take his place - you all make excellent points.
Now Joel, you say you've never told a lie. If you will answer the following questions, I will never post on here again and will forever silence my cricism of Arpaio (but then, I HAVE told a few lies in my life...)
1. What does SCA stand for?
2. Has the MCSO ever done business with or given a contract to Steve Ellman or Courtesy Chevrolet?
3. Why hasn't MACE started an investigation of the SCA?
4. If all was on the up and up, why did you obfuscate and delay for 9 months before coughing up the names of the donors to SCA? And then only did so under the threat of a $315,000 fine?
5. Why doesn't Arpaio want the public to know about where he owns commercial property?
6. Are you categorically denying that you had any knowledge that the SCA funds would be used to finance the anti-Saban ads?
If all you want to do is tell the truth, give us these answers. I bet it will shut a lot of us up.
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OMG 09/04/2009 1:36:00 PM
Joel,
You are indeed correct about segregating your account. I hope that you never felt that I could tell you how to segregate your account. I never did. I just pointed out that account segregation is a convenient way for your to shield hendershot after the fact.
Comingled funds are just that, comingled and mixed up. Suppose you collected 100K into a special fund and that I had donated 10K of it. I am 10% in.
Now you donate $90K of this fund to a political party. It is conceivable that you could say that you did not donate any of my donation to the party because the exact amount not donated precisely equates to the amount I donated. But what about Frank's donation of $10K? You could alternatively claim that you did not donate his money? there is nothing exact here.
Now suppose you donated $85K of your account. Can you legitimately claim that you did not donate any of my money and did not donate half of Frank's money? It gets harder to believe.
Finally suppose you donated $95K. Obviously you dontated some of my money. I believe an auditor would consider all of the funds donated for the same purpose to the same account to be conmingled. In this latest case, it would be assumed that $9500 of my $10K donation of your fund was sent on to the party. The same approach would be applied to the other cases cited above.
It is sort of like making kool-aid. You have powder and water. You stir them up and then you pour the mixture out. That is basically what comingled funds are, especially when they are initially donated with a common purpose to a common cause.
Now, let's talk about segregating out Hendershott's funds as you claim to have done. You claim that Hendershott had no influence whatsoever on your management of the SCA account. Then why would his money be segregated as a "do not donate" portion of your account? Why would you hang others out to dry yet keep the Chief's money clean and segregated. I am failing to understand your logic Joel. Your actions of segregating your account don't match your words of no influence from Hendershott.
Typically segregation of funds in an account should be accompanied by some level of documentation at the time of the segregation. Segration after the fact or just an arbitrary segration statement to support a claim or protect someone is not generally acceptable.
These funds were all given for the same purpose to the same account during the same time period. Would it not be fraudulent or depeptive to the donors to use their money for purposes other than what it was given for? Would it not be fraudulent or deceptive to use the money while not using the money of another donor as you claim in the segration scenario? I didn't donate Hendershott's money to the party, but you other guys may have donated too much to the party and that might be against the law. Sorry guys :-(
Joel, I know you will disagree. I also know that making things up after the fact will always leave holes not known to the story-teller. Only that actual truth, and the entire truth will weave an unbroken web that is believable.
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skeptic 09/04/2009 7:42:00 AM
Regarding #25 by Joel Fox:
I don't know much about burdens of proof, but I have never heard of "reasonable cause" as a burden. I have heard of "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause" although neither of those terms are burdens of proof at trial. What is this "reasonable cause" thing?
Not to hijack the topic, but it would be nice to benefit from your extensive education and experience in law enforcement.
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EnoughisEnough 09/04/2009 7:36:00 AM
Joel, have you considered a career in public speaking? Too bad Wallace and Ladmo are dead and gone - because you would have made a perfect patsy for Ladmo. Just your picture standing before a microphone pretending to be a professional le career man makes this taxpayer want to throw up. Your credibility with your continued lies and attempts at deflecting the real issues here make you - I would bet - one of the most despised current le officers around. I think back to the shameful disgraceful nonsense MCSO put Lovejoy through - and they have yet to issue one word about you. They couldn't slander Lovejoy ENOUGH in the press to suit their thirst for blood. I'd be offended if I were ANY proper, lawful and law abiding officer trying to make a living. You shame them all.
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AnotherFormerRepublican 09/04/2009 7:12:00 AM
Mr. Joel Fox please ask yourself:
WHY Joe Arpaio would participate in the charging of another elected offical for disclosure discrepancies at the SAME TIME that his own disclosure statements for years have multiiple properties owned by him that he didn't disclose including family trusts?
WHY the MCSO would pursue charges against Sandra Dowling for hiring her daughter when David Hendershot's has his OWN son working for HIS DAD and accumulated 936 hours of overtime in the one reporting period disclosed in the paper?
WHY everyone else's but MCSO's business should be considered press conference material for MCSO and MCAO except the Sheriff, Hendershott and yours? YOU were the one who pleaded to keep your donors names out of the public domain. YOU were the one who pleaded to have your case SEALED.
WHY you believe it was okay for MCSO to issue slandering statements about others but you react like a small child when the MCSO corruption boils over and the public has had enough?
the public is waiting for total and complete disclosure from all of you.
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Coz 09/04/2009 6:59:00 AM
If it slithers like a snake,
Lies like a snake,
Looks like a snake,
It must be Fox.
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Coz 09/04/2009 6:59:00 AM
If it slithers like a snake,
Lies like a snake,
Looks like a snake,
It must be Fox.
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Cindy Weiss 09/04/2009 6:57:00 AM
Hey Joel - you keep blaming issues on reporters. The REPORTER didn't accuse arpaio of erros or assets not reported - the documentation is part of a court motion - and it shows by parcel number, date, transaction history, etc. ownership of properties that are NOT disclosed on the arpaio forms. Get a copy if you need to be educated. Maybe Arpaios lawyers are already leafing through them trying to spin it. Records are records. You can't blame a reporter for that.
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Coz 09/04/2009 6:51:00 AM
You bet your ass you POS....and it's all finally about to come true....
You are going to plead Not Guilty, right ?
See you in court when you try and sell you're bullshit to a jury....
LOL...LOL...LOL...
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FormerRepublican 09/04/2009 6:48:00 AM
"I'll bet none of you suggesting that Arpaio's financial disclosure forms are wrong can cite what must be disclosed. You don't even know what is supposed to be on the form, but you're just sure that Arpaio did it wrong. You don't know the law, you don't know what should have been done, you don't know what was done, but you know it was wrong."
Joel, please dont' dismiss the public at large as a bunch of idiots - especially in light of the fact that YOU did not register the SCA until you were forced to under threat of penalty - and that you did not have a clue in the world what you were doing as treasurer of the SCA. You contineu to say you don't believe you were a political committee - yet Chris Baker has already given testimony that you wanted SCA to be more political. Checks were noted with a "PAC" and you and Larry Black went as far to register domain names.
You can't play dumb AND smart to the average citizen any more. Pick a stance and stick to it.
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Coz 09/04/2009 6:42:00 AM
Don't hold your breath, Candy Dandy Thomas is a pussy.
He's in this as deep as the POS Fox, Hendershott and the rest of the Goons.
>>Thomas may not be the little beyotch anymore and may seize this opportunity to make a name for himself.
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FormerRepublican 09/04/2009 6:39:00 AM
Joel, what seems rational is that your office and that of the MCAO have had a long history of "do as I say" and "not as I do" - and that includes you. You have now been found with reasonable cause by 3 separate parties and yet you continue to deflect your activity saying everybody else is wrong and going overboard on "polical correctness" - since when is campaign law and political correctness interwoven? You are not being investigated for political correctness - but you are being investigated for criminal violations of campaign law. The stapley article that shows discrepancies in Arpaios disclosure statements IS important - because if it is accurate, then there are many many folks who will demand equal justice for ANY official who files these forms. Since as the article says, Arpaio is the one who investigated Stapley then it should be completely appropriate to have Arpaio investigated for the reported (and documented) errors and/or ommissions on his own forms.
What makes no sense about that? Nobody, absolutely nobody, is above the law. Even your office.
