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07/09/2011 3:42:00 AM
The work of the recall team is not done. They are taking it all the way through the recall election by supporting Pearce's challenger. This bit about name calling Pearce that some commenters allege is preposterous. It's not name calling. It's stating what the issues are, there are so many. He is not just representing LD18 he's the Senate President and has time and time again abused that position. He continues to shut the people out of the Democratic process and that is the main issue I have with him. He's bad for Arizona and I would think the GOP would want to see him go because he's bad for the GOP brand.
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06/30/2011 5:10:00 PM
This is funny -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEpNFogw-k4&
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FormerRepublican 06/22/2011 8:01:00 AM
Lazy, indifferent and boring reporters in a major time slot.
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haughty 06/16/2011 9:06:00 PM
Horizon really needs to get its stuff together. Many times they have guests on with no counterpoint and Ted doesn't do enough grilling for my taste. Outright lies are spread with no one getting called on them; I'd like to put my fist into the TV screen watching this pbs program. Really lazy journalist are on this show way too many times.
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hotrodl 06/16/2011 8:48:00 AM
I stopped reading or listening to Robb's insane crap years ago, and I always felt he was nothing more than a whore for the Republican wacko's. Then it dawned on me....He's got to be a mormon. That would answer all the questions.
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Hotrodl 06/16/2011 8:13:00 AM
In the distant past.....People have been brought into Arizona from other states and registered in a particular district to vote. It will be interesting to see if the registered voters increase dramatically in that district before the election. I would say that SOMEONE needs to keep an eye on that, because I believe the CULT will try it, if they can.
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Scotto 06/15/2011 9:28:00 PM
Pretty funny thread, but I do have a serious question: is the RecallPearce.com team even relevant anymore. I mean, they collected the signatures and now there will be an election. Their job is done, right?
I suppose they could endorse a candidate, but other than that, does it matter if their website sucks or if they aren't any good at media stuff?
FWIW, the website isn't the best. I had to search for a site that explained the recall process and came across http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Laws_governing_recall_in_Arizona. If it is correct, then the recall team's work is done.
But, this has been a fun read..
kcarson as the bitter old professor.
mistalee as the village idiot.
Chad Snow as the petulant novice.
Good stuff.
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Scotto 06/15/2011 1:57:00 PM
dude - you're the kind of jerk who makes liberal a bad word.
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ScottOscar 06/15/2011 1:55:00 PM
I wouldnt have put it in that strong language, but you do seem pretty immature. The questions he put out there seem kinda easy, and the his comments seem pretty on point.
I'm not sure what your problem is, but I don't think I'd want to have much to do with you. You remind me of a jerk boss I once had.
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06/15/2011 1:52:00 PM
Glad to help out. "Know thine enemy" is still good counsel.
FWIW, I have seen on any number of occasions journalists decide to cash in by jumping the fence and becoming PR men or PIOs. Didn't think much of them. But RobbRobb jumping the fence in the other direction from being a political lobbyist to covering the very people he used to lobby for, that stinks like a gutpile. "Journalistic objectivity?" Not happening here.
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Kcarson 06/15/2011 7:26:00 AM
MIstalee needs a lesson in reading comprehension. Then he can move on to learning about groupthink.
I understand, he lacks the intellectual capacity to argue with logic so he resorts to name calling and this bizarre "concern troll" insult.
For those who don't know, concern troll is an insult used to quiet any disagreement from someone who agrees with you in 90-percent of the issues. It's a shortcut to thinking. It means you don't have to consider fully the issue being discussed, and that any variance from the "norm" is not tolerated.
Funny thing here - there is no norm. Mistalee and I just disagree about a few aspects of the recall, and that makes his tiny head explode. We both want Pearce gone, we just differ on how that might best come about. Because I'm not in line with him, he resorts the urban dictionary and finds "concern troll." I counter with a peak at universally accepted political psychology and retort with "groupthink." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink)
Invoking "concern troll" is the hallmark of a simple mind, which we all know is the hallmark of mistalee.
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Concerned Citizen 06/15/2011 4:07:00 AM
M. Thanks for sharing. Newcomers need to know who all these creeps are.
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Concerned Citizen 06/15/2011 4:02:00 AM
M, Thanks for filling in the jigsaw puzzle. It makes sense now. Time to hear some other voices on Horizon and where the same ole, same ole appear over and over ad nauseum.
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KCarson 06/15/2011 1:26:00 AM
There's no need to resort to name-calling when the argument is so easily defeated by counter-argument. There's no need to try to discredit the messenger when the message he delivers is a slow-pitch softball that you can easily knock out of the ballpark.
I understand, when all you have is a hammer, the world looks like one big nail, but, seriously, you need to add some more tools to your intellectual arsenal.
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Harry Wisencraker Jr. 06/14/2011 11:26:00 PM
Just ask Alphonse about that particular Karma, while his balls weren't literally busted, he contracted venereal disease. I believe he was released early because his brains had turned to mush. Breath a sigh of relief, the politicians in question are older and have a substantial head start on the whole brains/mush thing so they shouldn't have to be incarcerated too many years on the public dole. The whole climatic payoff will be, of course, watching the pair (Joe and Rusty) running (hand in hand or in handcuffs, don't matter) thru the gantlet of shame as they are escorted from their respective offices.
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Harry Wisencraker 06/14/2011 11:10:00 PM
Alphonse Capone was sent to prison on Tax Evasion charges even though it was widely know he was a murdering racketeer who had a good portion of Chicago by the balls. Both the Joe Arpiao (aka: Sheriff of "What-a-ham") and Russell Pearce (aka: RustyP/Morman Kahdaffy (yeah I stole that one from the Republic, so sue me!)) both have an Elephant Shit sized pile (yeah a good healthy one too, probably lots of fiber) of evidence against them and it's going to be a simple little detail that will bring them to their knees. I love it, Karma can be a REAL BALL-BUSTER sometimes!
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06/14/2011 6:14:00 PM
Don't be a douchebag. RobbRobb's history as a lobbyist for Arizona's extreme right wing is not a "conspiracy theory," it's a matter of documented fact. Chuck Coughlin, Pearce's current lobbyist, brags of his association with Robb when Robb was a lobbyist. The Phoenix New Times named Robb as being the lobbyist responsible for getting the onerous "English Only" proposition ramrodded through.
http://www.azhighground.com/?page_id=109
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Kcarson 06/14/2011 3:36:00 PM
Answer my questions and I'll answer yours.
You're a public figure - you get to take some flak. (see also, grow up ...)
You have written that you aren't a media professional, but when offered some advise from one who is (or, at least was), you stomp your feet and hold your breath.
I wish you well, despite all this. Give 'em hell, get 'er done.
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Kcarson 06/14/2011 3:30:00 PM
"If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.” Elbert Hubbard
You needn't descend into the land of Hayworth and Pearce by resorting to name calling. Nor are your blanket declarations, void of argument or reason, effective in defeating Robb.
Fear not, I am here to help you.
Robb's major premise is persuasive on its face: it is an abuse of the political process to recall an elected official who is acting exactly like the voters who elected him expected. This argument has legs. In America we don't undo elections simply because we don't like the color of shirt a man or woman is wearing. Only a fool argues otherwise.
We use recall in extreme situations, and Pearce is too extreme for LD18.
Where Robb's argument fails is that Pearce is not behaving like the man he campaigned to be.
Pearce did not campaign on being a failed leader.
Pearce did not campaign on pushing unconstitutional legislation.
Pearce did not campaign on being divisive, caustic and generally unable to build consensus.
Pearce did not campaign on his becoming a national laughingstock.
Pearce did not campaign on putting his personal agenda ahead of the very real needs of LD18.
So, let's shelf the name-calling and the great-right-wing conspiracy tinfoil-hat theories.
Robb has his argument. We (you and I) disagree with it, and we can easily prove it wrong. In fact, we like it when he makes the argument, because it's like getting a softball pitch - easy to smack out of the ballpark.
However, as Lemons points out, the recall needs to be represented in the media in order to be heard smacking Robb around. For this reason, the recall needs to build better relations with the media and work diligently on getting its core argument repeated in each and every media report. (Hope that advice doesn't offend the thin-skinned who have whined they are tired of hearing from people who think they know how things should be done. ).
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06/14/2011 2:29:00 PM
A trivial (or perhaps not so trivial) fact about RobbRobb.
Before taking his current position as a "journalist," Robb was a [staunchly Republican, nativist] lobbyist who worked with Chuck Coughlin, Pearce's current lobbyist. The firm in which Robb was a partner, Nelson, Ralston, Robb, successfully campaigned for prop 106, the nativist "English Only" measure.
Robb's journalistic objectivity is absolutely nil, nada, zip. And it's no great surprise that he pulled straight from his right-wing ass a preposterous argument against the recall.
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Chad Snow 06/14/2011 5:00:00 AM
"Awww, political discourse offends you to such a measure you have to curse" Those are your words, Kit, in response to Mistalee.
Maybe I am the wrong guy for this crusade. But I'm crusading, and not just sitting on my butt criticizing others. You haven't responded to my questions: how much have you donated? How much time have you spent collecting signatures? How much of your reputation have you put on the line?
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Ainja 06/14/2011 1:38:00 AM
I hope they recall Gallardo they jus tneed two thirds of senate vote, I used to like him , but now now. Those tweets were brutal that he is a cancerous tumor that needs to be removed(from the senate). Well I got a job because of e-verify. I was born in Arizona and do to our big overpopulation problem, it is hard getting a job. I am so happy i complained about a bank, now it is closing:) Nobody ever was in there(customers), while all the homeless were outside on the bus bench with agony in their eyes.
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Mistalee 06/14/2011 1:20:00 AM
I have experience with the media on both ends, and if a reporter has shafted you, deliberately and with malice, I really don't think its in your interest to continue clutching that viper to your bosom. I'm not saying to be anything other than polite to them, it's never smart to needlessly make an enemy in the press, I'm saying invest the majority of your efforts with journalists who are sympathetic or who can at least be swayed.
Chad, feel free not to take my advice, in fact, DO go to at least one person with experience in grassroots activism and media campaigns and see what they have to say about managing reporters who are biased against your cause. Don't take my word for it.
Also, please feel free not to take Kcarson's advice. He has been pretending for the most part to kiss your ass while passive-aggressively belittling and undermining your efforts, and that suggests that he does not have your best interest at heart.
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Mistalee 06/14/2011 1:04:00 AM
"Lemons writes that the local media elite aren't taking the recall seriously, but that they should.
I'm on Lemons side -"
Yeah, you're not on lemons side - because Lemons didn't say the local media elite aren't taking the recall seriously. In fact, he praised those who were and are.
The main thrust of this article is the ham-handed efforts of Ted Simons, a talking head biased against the recall effort, who hand-picked three other similarly disposed columnists to do a hatchet job on the recall.
Four right-wing hacks; That's it. That's not "the local media." It is you who are looking to paint the recall effort's media outreach as a failure, and it is you and only you maining the false claim that "the local media elite aren't taking the recall seriously."
You are a hypocrite and a liar, posing as a supporter of the recall effort while sowing lies, fear, uncertainty and doubt.
You are a concern troll, and as you continue with your pathetic efforts, you make this clear to more and more readers.
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Kcarson 06/14/2011 12:25:00 AM
Please ignore Mistalee, his advise will harm the recall.
Enemy list building went out with Nixon and Kissinger -- and only find favor in the minds of Arpaio-like thinkers.
I was a journalist prior to going to law school, and I was pretty good. Since law school I've been employed by several campaigns helping with various media issues, some legal, some precision journalism based, some just dealing with messaging.
No matter what you think of me, please consider the following:
When you block access you do, indeed, threaten the journalists ability to do his job. However, it rarely works to your advantage such that it causes the press to thereby adopt your argument to gain greater access, at least not for a one-issue source. (cf, a source in national security that can contribute to many stories for years to come.) The expected response is that the journalist will simply run whatever his other sources give him, and become further entrenched in their support for the opposition.
Need proof: consider the PNT. Has blocking the PNT from press conferences diminished its criticism? Do you really want to model your media plan after Lisa Allen?
Please consider doing the following: create a simple, easy-to-understand, message for why recalling Pearce is both appropriate and necessary. It must be more than a soundbite and less than a speech. I know, it's not easy, but once you have your elevator pitch down, you then can repeat it everywhere at anytime. You want to define the discourse.
Those who disagree with you, you want to co-opt. You want to engage them in friendly, professional terms with a strong reliance on comity. Even if they don't "get it" they will at least accurately report your elevator pitch. In other words, when you keep open the communication, and when that communication is nothing but your elevator pitch, then your elevator pitch is what will be delivered.
Good luck, and for all our sake, ignore Mistalee.
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Linda 06/14/2011 12:05:00 AM
all republican lawmakers in arizona need to go down
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06/14/2011 12:02:00 AM
You've done a great job. Amazing how few activists and organizers are willing to wear out a pair of shoes going door to door and building grassroots support. But you did it, and you did it right. That's how this battle will be won.
You won't get the entire media to line up behind you like a hallelujiah chorus. It's not because they don't "get it," its because you're up against political biases both of reporters, and, more importantly, editors and managers who tend to be politically well to the right of their newsroom staff.
I would suggest that you identify those who support you, those who screwed you and those who are on the fence. Work with and support the ones that support you, woo the ones on the fence and the ones who screwed you can get their news elsewhere.
You're actually making the news now, Chad, and reporters will need access to you. No need to give them that access if they've proven themselves to be dicks.
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Kcarson 06/13/2011 11:58:00 PM
You think you can counter hate with more hate?
I have no problem fighting against Pearce and his racist kin while also fighting back the bigots on the other side of the retard-spectrum.
Go troll elsewhere, you're bad for the recall, bad for Arizona and bad for society in general.
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Kcarson 06/13/2011 11:58:00 PM
You think you can counter hate with more hate?
I have no problem fighting against Pearce and his racist kin while also fighting back the bigots on the other side of the retard-spectrum.
Go troll elsewhere, you're bad for the recall, bad for Arizona and bad for society in general.
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Kcarson 06/13/2011 11:55:00 PM
You're functionally illiterate. You don't understand metaphor.
Of course I wasn't calling Snow or the recall "clowns,' I was pointing out that attendance does not equal respect.
Snow claims that because journalist show up, they are taking the recall seriously.
Lemons writes that the local media elite aren't taking the recall seriously, but that they should.
I'm on Lemons side - the side you simply can't abide because it doesn't fit your black-and-white world view.
Please, keep with the child-like "concern-troll" name calling. As anyone with a triple digit IQ understands, "concern-troll" is just another way of saying "I can't hang with you intellectually, I can't come up with a reasoned response to your argument, and it hurts my feelings when someone doesn't mindlessly agree with me."
Groupthink - it's more than just a theory.
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06/13/2011 11:43:00 PM
Yeah, you're not a hater, you're all sunshine and little pink flowers.
Go fuck yourself.
Everyone knows you're a joke.
And you emphasize that fact when you post crap like this. Those who are hysterical haters of Hispanics will never cease supporting Pearce and people like him. Attempting to reason with and persuade them is a fool's errand. If you can't graciously ignore them, then publicly deride them, because their racist crap needs to be held up to ridicule.
Of course, you are a closet Pearce supporter, so we know you won't do that.
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06/13/2011 11:34:00 PM
Your words -
"one of the dumbest things I have read on this subject is Snow claiming that because 40 journalists showed up for a press conference they were all taking the movement seriously. People like to show up and watch clowns, doesn't mean they take them seriously."
Pretty clearly suggesting that the journalists were showing up to watch Chad and Parraz's clown show.
So, Mr. "I'm a lawyer and a Christian," you also are now a DOCUMENTED liar, a hypocrite and a concern troll.
And you're busted.
Everyone reading this thread has made you for the liar, hypocrite and concern troll you are. Your credibility is shot.
I'm not debating you. It's pointless to debate with someone whose opinion you don't respect and whose sincerity is questionable at best.
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Kcarson 06/13/2011 11:27:00 PM
I'm sorry, is this supposed to be a race to see who can be the biggest racist?
Both you and Pearce disgust me.
Go troll elsewhere. Hateful, mean-spirited people like you only serve to drive a wedge between the undecided likely voters and the recall movement.
The goal is to win over the hearts and minds of those who have voted for Pearce in the past, not to mock them, thereby causing a re-entrenchment of his support.
Go troll elsewhere
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Kcarson 06/13/2011 11:24:00 PM
Kcarson wrote, in response to Robb's argument that Pearce is just being exactly whom the voters elected:
"Pearce did not campaign on the promise to that he would fail as a leader. Pearce did not campaign on the promise that he would push, repeatedly, unconstitutional legislation. Pearce did not campaign on the promise that he would ignore the true challenges before the state to chase after his bizarre political vendetta. The voters of LD18 did not, under any terms, deliberately elect a man who would go on to become an national embarrassment.
"Recall of Pearce is not only appropriate, but necessary for the good of LD18 and the state in general."
Upon reading this, Mistalee wrote: "Are you sure you don't work for Pearce?"
Does anyone have any doubt that Mistalee is functionally and politically illiterate?
Does anyone doubt he is a troll?
No.
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Kcarson 06/13/2011 11:15:00 PM
>"I advocate instead keeping on message "
What message? That's been the whole argument. What is the fucking message of the recall?
I've asked anyone to give me the message. I've asked for the campaigns underlying syllogism. I've asked for the elevator pitch. I've asked for the simple, cogent message a sixth-grader can understand.
Silence.
I've asked anyone to show me where that message has been dutifully repeated in the media, thereby proving the efficacy of the media relations.
More Silence.
My point is simple: it's time to act like to up the recall's game. It's time to quit whining about the media and to actually start acting on persuading them.
For this, sycophantic trolls like you, trolls can only abide by echo chamber re-affirmation.
Compounding this: YOU ARE A LIAR!
I've never called the leadership of the recall or the recall itself "clowns."
YOU ARE A LIAR!
YOU ARE A TROLL!
YOU ARE BAD FOR THE RECALL!
Go do something worthwhile. Put down the phony labels such as "concern troll" and go read some real political and psychological theory by boning up on "groupthink" and "borderline personality disorder."
Dissent in politics and decision making is a positive. Black and white thinking is psychotic.
Just because you lack the intellectual or psychological capacity to engage in debate doesn't mean the rest of us can't.
GO TROLL SOME PLACE ELSE.
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06/13/2011 9:05:00 PM
Where where are you tonight, why did you leave me here all alone. I searched the world over and thought I found true love. You met another and PFFT you were gone. Lets face it were living in the show of HEE HAW.
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Not surprised 06/13/2011 5:21:00 PM
Better yet, 1972 Thing
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06/13/2011 1:14:00 PM
"You, Mistalee, actually advocated not responding to the argument"
I advocate not rebutting the argument.
I advocate instead keeping on message and simply deriding this as the latest desperate effort of a corrupt, embattled politician to derail a popular movement to vote him out of office.
It deserves no more.
And yes, you are definitely and unmistakably a concern troll. Under the false flag of supporting the recall, you have done little on this thread but deride the efforts and the abilities of those who have successfully mobilized voters and made the recall election possible. You have called them clowns and worse.
Are you sure you don't work for Pearce?
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Kcarson 06/13/2011 12:29:00 PM
In other words, you have no response for the ass-whooping delivered upon you.
Your concession is accepted.
You are free to return to your life as a troll, desperately seeking to prevent dissent, pathetically trying to protect an organization that needs to fix itself, not listen to sycophants like you.
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Kcarson 06/13/2011 12:27:00 PM
Wow - you claim Robb's argument doesn't deserve a rebuttal, yet that is what you've done, in your own half-ass way.
Tell me, was that so hard that you still want the recall to hide its head in the sand?
Here's a political message that resonates with voters: You don't undo free and fair elections via recall simply because the elected official does exactly what he promised voters he would do.
Here's the rebuttal: Pearce did not campaign on the promise to that he would fail as a leader. Pearce did not campaign on the promise that he would push, repeatedly, unconstitutional legislation. Pearce did not campaign on the promise that he would ignore the true challenges before the state to chase after his bizarre political vendetta. The voters of LD18 did not, under any terms, deliberately elect a man who would go on to become an national embarrassment.
Recall of Pearce is not only appropriate, but necessary for the good of LD18 and the state in general.
You, Mistalee, actually advocated not responding to the argument, seemingly because you didn't have a good enough response stored in your empty little head. You masked your ignorance with a splendid display of failed logic and an intellectually indefensible claim regarding the legality of the recall when all the while the discussion was about the politics.
So absolutely pathetic are your political chops that you actually used a pretend catchphrase ("concern troll") to mask your foray into the true and real land of groupthink."
You can't handle dissent. You are bad for the recall.
Let the adults discuss the issues.
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06/12/2011 11:21:00 PM
"Who's the troll"
Thanks for asking.
You are. Your ass has been showing all over this thread, and no amount of verbiage can obscure that.
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Kcarson 06/12/2011 10:51:00 PM
You're just another person afraid of a little criticism.
A "concern troll" is not a construct recognized in psychiatry or behavioral science; rather, it is an "urban" definition created by fools who need a reason to dismiss logic they can't defeat using fact, logic or reason.
In contrast, borderline personality disorders are recognized in science and they typically include the symptom of holding a "you're either for us or against us mentality."
I'm for the recall, just think it needs to step up its game and get more focused. I do think Robb's argument will resonate within the voting community, and I've offered how I would defeat it. Further, I've praised Lemons for doing a great job of offering how he would defeat it. You, however, don't want it addressed, leaving it our there in the marketplace if ideas to compete unchecked against the recall.
Who's the troll?
I've addressed the concern the campaign is speaking to Arizona as a whole and not to LD18 specifically. I've stated this is because "all politics are local" and it is only the LD18 voter who will actually participate in the election. You are unconcerned by this and don't seem to mind that effort is expended persuading, for example, the people of Flagstaff that Pearce needs to go.
Who's the troll?
I've addressed the concern the campaign lacks a simple, cogent unassailable political syllogism for why Pearce should be recalled. I've offered a format and a logic to use for such a syllogism. I've coached that whatever argument the recall wants to use, it should use it repeatedly on every occasion so as to "define the discourse" and thereby ultimately be persuasive. You disagree. You think the recall should continue with its shotgun approach, which to date has lead to the poor reporting complained of in Lemons' article and whined about in Snow's post.
Who's the troll?
You are. You only want people who agree with you, and any voice of dissent you try to quit with false claims. Unlike you're pretend categorization of "concern trolling," there actually is a genuine political phenomenal one can use to describe your behavior: groupthink.
This whole debate came about because the media isn't taking the recall seriously. Lemons' article brilliantly points out what the local media just doesn't get it. I've just extended his remarks to state, frankly and in terms you can not assail, that the recall needs to move from complaining about the media to acting on media.
Sorry this causes your small mind so much distress.
I return you to your echo-chamber and encourage you to use google to look up the terms you don't understand.
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06/12/2011 6:39:00 PM
Lets review your various comments on this thread.
You wholeheartedly support the recall effort and give full credit to Parraz, Snow, etc,
But
The don't know what they are doing, their methods aren't working, they are like a clown show, they need to grow the fuck up, Robb has a perfectly persuasive argument on the face of it, etc.
DEFINITION OF A CONCERN TROLL:
"Concern trolling is a form of Internet trolling in which someone enters a discussion with claims that he or she supports the view of the discussion, but has concerns. In fact, the concern troll is opposed to the view of the discussion, and he or she uses concern trolling to sow doubt and dissent in the community of commenters or posters. Although this practice originated on the Internet, it has since spread to the real world as well, with concern trolls popping up in a variety of places from network television to op-ed columns."
You've been made, KCarson.
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06/12/2011 5:43:00 PM
"Your argument is the one that does not deserve rebuttal"
And yet here you are rebutting it. Funny.
There is no abuse here. The purpose of the recall process is to empower voters to remove an elected official from office. Duh. This is not an impeachment process, where the basis for proceeding is limited to specified grounds. "Abuse" of the process would be using it for other than its intended purpose. The Pearce recall effort is using the process for its INTENDED purpose, that being, to remove an official with whom they are dissatisfied from office. . They are not misusing the process, they are using it.
FWIW, I would doubt one LD 18 voter in fifty read what Robb has to say and gave it credence. There is no need for Parraz, Snow and company to lend his drivel false dignity by treating it as a reasoned argument.
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Kcarson 06/12/2011 4:33:00 PM
You keep hoping to switch topics.
My argument from the beginning has been that this is a political syllogism. I knew there were some dumbasses in the audience who would think I was making a legal argument, so I added the modifier. Didn't seem to work.
For some bizarre reason known only to you, you keep trying to pretend this isn't a political issue. You're having a debate with yourself, and nothing you write has any merit.
It doesn't matter whether you like the argument, it is one that others will accept. When you ignore it or treat it with disrespect you are offending those who find it credible. You then seem like a pathetic political hack who is operating out of hate and not concern for Arizona.
Learn to read, then we will pay attention to what you write.
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Kcarson 06/12/2011 4:27:00 PM
Okay, so you're not as bright as I thought.
I used the phrase "political syllogism" to deliberately distinguish Robb's argument from a legal one. Robb is not claiming the recall is illegal; rather, he is arguing it is a lawful abuse. You and Snow seemingly don't understand the difference.
Your argument is the one that does not deserve rebuttal, you being the one to argue that recalling an politician over his choice of shirt color would not constitute an abuse.
I submit that virtually all would believe otherwise.
Robb's argument has merit and needs addressed, unless you want to lose. I've already given my rebuttal to Robb, but I'm not the voice of the movement. Neither are you, but you are the one who is transparently trying to avoid an issue for which he has no legitimate answer.
In the absence of rebutting Robb, the movement still needs to express its own simple, easy to digest argument on why Pearce needs to lose the recall election.
Your echo chamber does not extend to the universe of likely LD18 voters and the movement will lose if it doesn't grow.
PS: one of the dumbest things I have read on this subject is Snow claiming that because 40 journalists showed up for a press conference they were all taking the movement seriously. People like to show up and watch clowns, doesn't mean they take them seriously.
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Rcgaard 06/12/2011 4:17:00 PM
new times , you are very wrong..this guy has tons of support, and arpiro....you need to get your facts straight.....we all know that new times supports illegals..
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06/12/2011 4:09:00 PM
"In a political case everyone has the right to declare legitimate or illegitimate any act of public import."
Nice try. I said RobbRobb lacks the AUTHORITY to do so. He has the right to say any damned thing he wants to, in light of the first amendment.
And with all due respect ( which, in this instance is none at all) you have no clue what is in my heart of hearts.
If you had the sense god gave geese, you would realize that a reasoned response to an assinine statement (such as Robb's) only serves to lend it a false air of credibility. His argument merits nothing more than derision and ridicule, and anything more will ultimately be less.
Pearce has already positioned himself to be seen as pathetic, desperate, crazed. That is the point that should be driven home, and that is the appropriate framing for any response to his claims that the recall is somehow illegitimate.
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Kcarson 06/12/2011 3:57:00 PM
Awww, political discourse offends you to such a measure you have to curse.
Sounds like you are the one that refuses to embrace democracy. Robb has his opinion and his argument is persuasive on its face.
So, what cha going to do? Embrace free speech or get the ....
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Kcarson 06/12/2011 3:55:00 PM
Don't act on your own peril.
You clearly know nothing about politics.
This is not a legal issue, its a political issue.
You're out of your depth, and your flailing only further harms the movement.
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Kcarson 06/12/2011 3:53:00 PM
Let me set this straight right now - no one is making a legal case. We are discussing a political case. In a political case everyone has the right to declare legitimate or illegitimate any act of public import.
Whether you accept Robb's argument is immaterial.
What matter is whether it makes sense to voters.
In your heart of hearts you know it does. You don't like it so you hope that some jedi mind trick can make it go away. That, or you're not nearly as smart as I truly think you are.
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06/12/2011 3:50:00 PM
"Rather than whine about how you don't have to make an argument, how about you just man up and do it? If you can"
Which would presumably make me more a man than you, since it is you who are bloviating about the absolute indispensability of such an argument and yet failing to provide one.
I would not dignify Pierce and RobbRobb's nonsense with a reasoned counter-argument- such would lend their nonsense a dignity which it does not deserve.
Better to simply hold their argument up to ridicule as yet another empty gesture by a desperate man, a vain and self-serving attempt to obstruct the electoral process (of which recall is a part.)
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Kcarson 06/12/2011 3:50:00 PM
In other words, you have no response to any of my questions so you retreat the intellectual safe harbor of "I'm rubber and you're glue."
You needn't answer me in public, but I hope you are considering these concerns in private.
So, good luck and good bye.
Grow the fuck up still applies to you - but you just don't have the intestinal fortitude to accept criticism.
Right now you sound like the wrong guy for the right crusade.
Pearce needs to go, but you gleefully refuse to make the changes needed to see it happen.
I pray I'm wrong.
I pray Pearce is hated enough that his need to go trumps your inability to behave like a real campaign.
I do pray for your success.
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Kcarson 06/12/2011 3:44:00 PM
Sorry, but whether you like the argument is immaterial. The issue is whether it resonates with voters.
You can hold your breath and stomp your feat, but the people still think recall needs a special reason beyond the elected official being exactly whom the voters elected.
You stick to your logic and you - and me and the rest of AZ - will lose.
Rather than whine about how you don't have to make an argument, how about you just man up and do it? If you can ...
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06/12/2011 12:46:00 PM
It's entertaining to those already converted, off-putting to the uninitiated. I don't see what we gain in preaching to the choir and slapping each others' backs over insults. That's the type of thing you see over at seeingred or the other ultra-right trash blogs.
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Anon 06/12/2011 7:25:00 AM
Right on! Couldn't agree more. That was part of Arizona's charm which they've lost turning into the "hatred" state.
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Guest 06/12/2011 7:22:00 AM
sorry, Kit, I stopped taking you seriously at "grow the fuck up."
People who think they have all the answers have been a dime a dozen in this campaign. People who are willing to put their money and time where their mouths are have been much rarer. You say you want Pearce gone? How much have you donated? How many saturdays have you spent walking LD 18? Have you volunteered to help update the website or donate money to pay a professional to do it? Randy and I have jobs and families and still put our time, money, and reputations on the line to do what we think is right for this state. Do you think it's easy what we're doing? I've had horrible things said about me on this site and others. I get phone calls in the middle of the night and nasty e-mails every day.
Once again, he has the right to criticize who has the heart to help. I'm easy to find, look me up sometime and don't just belittle our efforts behind your screen name.
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Adrian Cruz 06/12/2011 7:12:00 AM
thanks Mistalee. actually, Adrian cruz was the child molester that Joe Arpaio's boys let walk out of the Superior court building unnoticed. I'm a white middle aged man who uses that name for fun!!!
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06/11/2011 11:58:00 PM
You know, I think a big part of the problem is people who don't get the concept of paragraphs.
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Cmic191 06/11/2011 6:59:00 PM
Neo-Fascist!
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06/11/2011 4:56:00 PM
Thanks Bill, I'm going to print your post and frame it so when anybody wants to see why I consider CONservative ideology a personality disorder, all I have do do is show them your post.BTW On Sunday, you know, after church, when you're having dinner with your family, what does your mother eat first? The kibble or the bits.
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06/11/2011 1:57:00 PM
Lets get this right, right now.
The people have the right to recall elected officials with whom they are dissatisfied.
Period.
Neither Robb Robb nor anyone else has the authority to declare which reasons for recall are legitimate or illegitimate. That is for the people to decide at the polling booth. The people can recall Pearce because they hate his flag shirts and his bad breath if they so choose.
Robbrobb's argument deserves no more rebuttal than this, and in fact, more will be less, because offering more will tend to pander to his false premise.
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06/11/2011 1:30:00 PM
That's it. It is ridiculous to publicly refute an argument that has no merit and makes no sense; to do so lends that argument unddeserved credibility. Better to simply frame Pearce's "abuse of power" argument as another preposterous and desperate gambit along the lines of his District 18 leftist-anarchist conspiracy theory.
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06/11/2011 1:26:00 PM
"Robt. Robb makes a perfectly valid argument, if you accept his middle premise, which I don't. Worse for our side, he lays it out in a simple, easy to digest manner"
Robert Robb articulates an absolutely ludicrous fallacy.
"Pearce is exactly the legislator his constituents voted for in the general."
Herein lies the fallacy. Recalls have no meaningful purpose OTHER than to recall ELECTED OFFICIALS. Meaning that yes, their constituents presumably voted them into office in the first place. That is not a disqualifier for a recall, but rather an obvious and axiomatic prerequisite to a recall. Hard to remove someone from office that you did not vote into office.
The recall process exists to empower the electorate to remove from an elected official from office when they are dissatisfied with that official's performance.
That is the case here.
Robb's false notion distills down to the idea that voters SHOULDN'T recall Pearce because they knew what he was and what he would do before they voted for him. That's a red herring.
Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It really doesn't matter. The power of the people to recall an elected official is not conditioned on what voters knew or didn't know prior to the official being elected. The people have the power and the right to remove from office those elected officials with whom they are dissatisfied; That is that. It is not an abuse of power, simply the exercise of it.
Memo to Robb Robb - embrace democracy or get the fuck out.
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06/11/2011 1:03:00 PM
I rather think it is you who don't get it.
As a former member of the "media," I can tell you with confidence that in matters of editorial opinion, it's generally NOT a matter of the media not getting it, but the editor or owner of that particular media outlet not wanting to get it for various political and business reasons.
The "abuse of power" claim is just another desperate shot in the dark by a corrupt politico who ironically is embattled because of his own abuses of power. He'll say or do anything to stay in office, and he's proven it; this is just another example. No reason to refute it, it doesn't deserve rebuttal, only ridicule. The stink of Pearce's fear is in the air.
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06/11/2011 12:50:00 PM
"You have failed to directly answer, in a format a sixth-grader can understand, why the recall is appropriate."
Crystal clear nonsense. The recall has roots going back to ancient Greece, and has been a feature of the American electoral process for more than a century. It allows voters to remove an elected official from public office when they are dissatisfied with his/her performance, as is the case here.
The Pearce recall effort is utilizing this long-established feature of the electoral process in the way and for the purpose intended. This is PARTICIPATION in democracy, not misuse of it.
And while that dillhole columnist from the Arizona Republican has asserted otherwise, neither he nor anyone else AFAIK has actually advanced a reasoned and persuasive argument supporting the contention that the recall effort is actually an abuse of process and not simply democracy in action.
On some level, the "abusing the process" bullshit is like LBJ's accusing his opponent of sex with farm animals, just to make his opponent deny it.
File the "abuse of process" canard alongside the "leftist anarchists and outsiders" nonsense as another pathetic and ridiculous accusation from a desperate political hack on the ropes.
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06/11/2011 12:23:00 PM
Oh, it's not over for those sandbillies. We're imposing a tax on methlabs and wifebeater tee shirts.
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Bobby 06/11/2011 9:12:00 AM
Well your'e only lukewarm. The leftists of the 60's were really mild compared to these vile and dangerous bloodsuckers today. They mean to take it all. It ain't gonna happen, relax.
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Bobby 06/11/2011 9:10:00 AM
P.S. I mean, even the leftists on PBS and NPR need money to keep their racist anti-white scams going.
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Bobby 06/11/2011 9:08:00 AM
Your'e right their afraid, and with good reason. The tide is turning. The "money", for all your leftist goodies is dried up, I'm afraid. You'll have to look elsewhere to fund your bogus "programs,".Stealing the taxes from sandbillys and other hardworking people is over.
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Bobby 06/11/2011 9:05:00 AM
Dream on babe, the future of the uneniding parade of illegal aliens is ending. Right now, in state after state, the sandbillys(translation: legal American citizens) are taking care of the Mexican and indeed, illegal invasion of anyone that comes here without premission. How about that? Your dreams of conquest will soon be over. We like things American, we don't want a replay of Narco-State, your beloved ideal.
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Kcarson 06/11/2011 1:55:00 AM
>"I think that's something to be proud of. "
And I would hope my praise of you in many posts reflects my complete concurrence.
You've got the word out, now you have to get the word right.
Sloganering has its place, and you've got a good one: Pearce is too extreme for Arizona.
I'd tighten it down to Pearce is too extreme for LD18, given that those are the voters you really want to talk to.
Further, you mock the concept of a political syllogism.
Surely you know what a syllogism is. Political is not too abstract a term, either. The combination of the two shouldn't be too exotic. (and should not be confused with a "politician's syllogism.")
Let me make it simple for you: can you express a simple logical argument for why the recall not only is not an abuse, but affirmatively is a necessity for LD18?
If you can, how about you start repeating it every time and every place you can?
I'd suggest to you this called defining the discourse, but you don't seem to like such talk ...
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Kcarson 06/11/2011 1:41:00 AM
"Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn." - Ben Franklin
When 40+ journalists show up, only to walk away and write a story different that the one you wanted, then you have failed.
Here's a quick test: give me your elevator pitch on why Pearce's recall is necessary for LD 18? Can you point to 40 articles that faithfully repeated that coherent, inarguable declaration?
Good luck to you, your lack of even a desire to learn how the political pros do things may well be your undoing. So, keep you crappy web site with its failed message, its incoherent voice, and its improper focus.
All you lose is a recall election. LD18 and the state will lose a lot more.
PS: Here's a question you may want to ask a "professional hack" about - as the election is only for LD18, why is your website directed to all Arizonians? You need to motivate voters within one specific district. You need to defeat the claim you are an "outsider." Why not demonstrate you have the political savvy to know that all politics are local?
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06/11/2011 1:06:00 AM
Ewww. WTF is a "sweatcake?" Sounds like something you would find under Arpaio's collar. Or in each and every fold of Hendershott's body.
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06/11/2011 1:03:00 AM
Actually, Ruby, Adrian Cruz is the only one with a hispanic surname who has ripped on Pierce in this thread. Cruz is far outnumbered by Anglo Republicans denouncing Pearce in these comments.
Delusional much?
That's probably what makes you such a racist twat. Much easier to be a racist when you invent fictions to fit your prejudices rather than letting the facts inform your opinions
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06/11/2011 12:59:00 AM
Like so many, this thread could be subtitled "Inbred sandbillies losing their shit."
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06/11/2011 12:57:00 AM
Nice of you to be sharing your extensive man-on-man sexual experience with a younger puto.
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06/11/2011 12:52:00 AM
Or like we came to Iraq illegally and then Afghanistan illegally and then Libya.
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06/11/2011 12:50:00 AM
"Interestingly, Horizon reveals the collective, lemming-like mindset so common to the media "elite" — such as it is — locally."
Interestingly? Sounds deadly boring to me. Like so much of PBS and NPR. They were once at least a lukewarm alternative to the mainstream media, but they are so shit-scared that the Republicans will cut their funding that they are more like a washed out and passionless parody of the mainstream.
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Ruby 06/10/2011 11:36:00 PM
Pepin - you are full of b_s_!
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Guest23 06/10/2011 11:30:00 PM
I will point out once again, excuse the typos caused by my phones small keyboard and my big fingers and this blogging software not having a preview feature. Ideally I would write my response, spell check them. And cut and paste them but the android phones make it close to impossible to cut and paste between programs like my blackberry was able to.
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Guest23 06/10/2011 11:21:00 PM
Heh, I see part of the problem is people like you that write things off by putting labels on them rather looking at realities that ae uncomfortable. I am from loer middle class roots, worked for my clothes and fun since I was in grade school, nothing ever handed to, found college stifling and explored and researched and sought out experts in fields of interest to me traveled north america and europe and found mark twains quote "Travel is fatal to prejudice , bigotry and narrow mindedness." To be quite true. Illegal imigrants are not the source of our problems with americans not having jobs, insurance rates and health care costs skyrocketing or violent crime.. it is a convenient scapegoat for those that don't want to accept reality and makes for buzzwords and catch phrases that inflame the masses. A secure border is not financially feasable or logically possible, issues that increase the disparity of wealth between the poor and wealthy are a major source of the problems we are experiencing, free enterprise does not solve the problems that govt programs have created due to greed, immigrant labor is necessary and no sound immigration policy has been implemented, selfishness is ia apart of the problem, laizess
faire politics in some form maybe necessary but is not the complete answer. The govt needs to think a bit more creatively and not operate with kneejerk reactionary politics. Do I have all the answers.. no but it is obvious that the current two party system and political thinking is not working, religion and politics should be absolutely seperate and labeling people liberals or conservatives isn't accurate since the majority of americans are moderate and think liberally in some situations and conservatiive in others often depending on their exxperiences in the world and I think influenced by being a have or a have nots. We need to look at our past and see what has worked and what has not and quit repeating the same mistakes and swtching back and forth between democrat and republican ideals every two to four years is obviously not working. What combination of the party that holds the presidency, the ones that control congress and the senate has worked best or worse. If we look at the deficit we had a few million dollar surplas at the end of the clinton era and a trillion dollar deficit shortly thereafter, what caused it and how do we get back to that. Putting off decisions that need to have been implemented a decade or more ago when the baby boomer bubble was realized never took place and is now starting to cause problems and making future problems more obvious. New thinking is neceesary, continuing to bog ourselves down with political rivalries isn't working.. sacrifice is needed and the rich have to eventually realize that their financial sacrifices hurt less than those the poor and middle suffer.. I know this because I have alternately made a ton of money and lived quite well and also have lost a ton of money due to crime and a healthcare system that is broken and it is simply easier for a rich man to give up one vacation a year or a 3rd or 4th car or boat or plane than it is for a poor or middleclass citizen to choose between their health and paying the rent. Hard decisions and major change needs to take place but certain realities need to be considered and the way the people are manipulated by politics, big business and apathy with little common sense needs to stop. I am not sure how this will take place but the polarized political atmoshpere is not helping.
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azteach 06/10/2011 9:06:00 PM
I cannot believe how "slanted" this paper is....all a bunch of lib-tards who remind me too much of the hippies of the 60's....spoiled mid-class kids whose parents did everything for them, then they go to college and become these "progressives" and want the US to take care of EVERYONE...no war, but more welfare mentality.
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Ruby 06/10/2011 7:07:00 PM
It wasn't "perfectly" said, but Bill's point is RIGHT ON! Amazing to me that most all the comments against Senator Pierce are signed by people with Mexican names.
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Adrian Cruz 06/10/2011 6:45:00 PM
I thought SB 1070 and Employer Sanctions had already ridded us of all the illegals. You mean to tell me those bills didn't work and those pesky Mescans are still here taking our jobs?
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Chad Snow 06/10/2011 6:39:00 PM
"He has the right to criticize who has the heart to help." - Abraham Lincoln
I think the 40+ journalists who showed up in the heat and stayed for almost 2 hours to cover our signature turn-in is fairly good evidence that the media has taken us seriously.
Have things been perfect? No. Remember that we're not professional paid political hacks like Constantin Querrard (allegedly hired recently by Pearce). We have jobs and families too.
P.S. I must not be that good - I have no idea what a "political syllogism" is.
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Chad Snow 06/10/2011 6:30:00 PM
Kit, we've had 6 well attended press conferences, been featured on CNN, MSNBC, and other nationwide news outlets. There is an article in the worldwide magazine The Economist about the recall this month. I have family from across the country saying they've seen news reports about it.
Are we media professionals? No. Have we done a pretty good job of getting the word out in spite of that? I think so. I'm not "bitching" (your word, not mine) about the coverage. I'm just pointing out that our effort is new and unprecedented in our state. Most of what happens in Arizona is controlled by monied interests like CCA (for example).
To our credit, we've organized hundreds of signature gatherers, raised over $35,000.00, and gathered 18,300 signatures that will force the recall of a legislator for the first time in our state's history and the first time in 235 years of U.S. history that a sitting Senate President has been recalled. I think that's something to be proud of. Our work is really just beginning.
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Ruby 06/10/2011 6:04:00 PM
only toes stepped on are "ILLEGAL TOES'.
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Ruby 06/10/2011 6:01:00 PM
you keep coming here and you will sink the country that is your "golden egg". make your own country better and stop infiltrating the usa - we can't save the world. if you ruin our country, then where will you invade?
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James 06/10/2011 5:51:00 PM
Wow, you may enjoy the 3 way as the feds are licking your balls and you are taking one up the ass from your hero Pearce. Your other hero Arporkhole is going to be toast very soon. You are a fucking clown.
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Haddie Nuff 06/10/2011 4:46:00 PM
And I feel the same way about Robb. Recall is an abuse of power? Seriously? I no longer read his column, however, because the last thing I want to do is contribute to his continued employment as a hack.
I happen to like Montini, but by all means, you should continue to click on his column. It adds to his value by upping the number of readers.
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Sdlkjf 06/10/2011 1:58:00 PM
come to the US legally.......You mean like the white man did a few hundred years ago and invaded the US and slaughtered the Indians?
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Tina 06/10/2011 12:04:00 PM
Gotcha. I'm with you. Right now Pearce is desperate. So desperate he's seeking out-of-state corporate campaign contributions. He doesn't appreciate that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and that it will be difficult to snow voters in his own district. I trust that the recall committee is and will continue to be keeping track of all his shenanigans, just as they did preparing for and conducting the recall drive.
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Kcarson 06/10/2011 8:57:00 AM
My position is entirely consistent. One can praise and critic in the same breath.
The recall is the right thing to do, and I think Mr. Snow deserves a huge measure of praise for having gotten it this far.
Now, however, the energy has to shift. It's not Lemons job to handle PR and Media Relations for the recall. Rather than complain the press doesn't have it right, Snow needs to devise a means of ensuring they do get it right.
AND
The recall needs to address how it will (1) ensure it can Get Out The Vote from the already converted and (2) persuade the undecided, likely voters that recall is appropriate.
The current messaging doesn't work. The site looks pretty, but lacks a cogent voice and a concise argument.
Robt. Robb makes a perfectly valid argument, if you accept his middle premise, which I don't. Worse for our side, he lays it out in a simple, easy to digest manner.
Here it is:
1) It is an abuse to recall an elected official who is exactly the legislature he promised to be during the campaign.
2) Pearce is exactly the legislator his constituents voted for in the general.
3) It is an abuse to recall Pearce.
Robb continues by claiming the recall is just a means of taking a second kick at the electoral process, that its just a vehicle to accomplish what the organizers failed to do in a fair and free election.
You should expect to read this argument a lot in the future. This is the message the other side is going to sell. And you know what - if you look at the recallpearce.com website, this argument gains credence.
Where is Mr. Snow's rebuttal? Where is his proffer of a political syllogism? All we see is a list of legislation Snow opposes, thus making the recall look like an effort to boot out a political adversary, nothing more.
You and I know it's far more than that, but for those who don't, it is Mr. Snow's job to make the recall's case.
In his article, Lemons does a nice job destroying Robb's argument. Namely, he rightfully states no one in their right mind voted for Pearce expecting him to be a complete fail of a leader, to bring Arizona into such disrepute and to champion unconstitutional and divisive legislation while ignoring the real issues confronting our state.
But, Lemons has a limited reach, and this is just one venue and it mostly preaches to the converted.
I want Snow to get this right, right now.
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Tina 06/10/2011 7:03:00 AM
Yeah, I read your first post after I commented on your later contrary post, which then leaves one with the impression that you must have had a schizo moment.
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Gray Race 06/10/2011 5:02:00 AM
If you want to prove a point learn how to fucking spell and watch your grammar dipshit.
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Tina 06/10/2011 4:05:00 AM
Rob,
Thanks much for providing the link to Friday's Horizon program with the reporters. Their irresponsible statements (Welch and Sunnucks) offered with an air of conceit like they knew what they were talking about was positively incredible. They either had no feel and understanding of what's going on out here, or, heaven forbid, it was a deliberate snow job for viewers. It was also as if they had no knowledge whatever of Russell Pearce's own words and actions these last few months, and didn't even read other news sources about the Pearce recall matter.
Host Ted Simons was uncharacteristically mute on the topic, didn't participate or comment on their assessments, and the other reporter as I recall provided basic info such as legal requirements, numbers of signatures and prospective election dates.
I was truly in dismay watching that video. Because Welch and Sunnucks were so bad, so lacking in credibility, it at least put me on notice to dismiss anything those two have to say in the future on political issues which I'm not already informed about.
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06/10/2011 3:34:00 AM
Me too. I live less than half a mile from one border of LD 18 and I so wished I could sign. But I'm glad to see that the residents of LD 18 have stepped up. Good work.
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Kcarson 06/10/2011 1:41:00 AM
Sycophantic much?
As I've written, Mr. Snow has done a great job, but the bottom line is that he is failing in the messaging to the media. He complains they don't get it, but he doesn't seem to be acting in a way to make them get it. His website is a complete fail: incomplete sentences, grammar errors, no concise argument.
He needs to step up his game. The media isn't taking him seriously because those things they look at and those things they look for aren't there or are there in an amateurish effort.
Evaluate. Adapt. Overcome. When it ain't working, fix it. That's my point.
Mr. Snow has written eloquently about why Pearce is a fail of a person, where is that great skill when it comes to the political necessity of the recall? You claim the recall has put together a simple syllogism: what is it? Can you show me where it has been repeated time and time-again in a effort to define the discourse?
Media management matters and all I see right now is a bunch of whining.
You may be more interested in kissing Mr. Snow's ass, but I'm more interested in seeing Pearce recalled.
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Tina 06/10/2011 12:37:00 AM
Let's see: did that, did that, did that, did that. Other than your troll posts, what are YOU contributing? What DID you contribute? Did you offer to circulate petitions? Did you contribute to the cause? Chad Snow has his facts straight and keeps people informed remarkably well....no nastiness, and has demonstrated incredible leadership...civilly.
And YOU??
