Catholic Conundrum: What's an Anti-Abortion, Pro-Immigrant Voter to Do?

maxonepercent

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First of all, the bible explicitly calls those who break the laws of the land sinners (see Romans 13:1-7), so support for those who have knowingly broken the law (i.e. illegal immigrants) is a sin in and of itself. Secondly, since abortion is basically murder in the eyes of the church there is really no choice in the matter. The democrats have explicitly positioned themselves as the "pro-abortion" party, they are not simply "tolerating" it any more, they are actively working to make abortions easier to obtain, even forcing religious organizations to pay for the operation even though it is a deadly sin. Therefore, a Catholic who is sympathetic to the plight of illegal immigrants really has only one possible choice that will leave him or her with a clear conscious: vote Republican and then put political pressure upon the Republican party to implement immigration reform. To vote democrat at this point is a vote in favor of abortion and sin.

theband12

@maxonepercent First of all, please drop the "i" word, the correct word is undocumented. The word "illegal" dehumanizes them. And the U.S.'s international economic policies have taken the jobs and the money from the people in other countries. They are desperate people and would do anything to survive. Seeking survival is not a sin. And breaking an unjust law, such as the present immigration law, which was created by xenophobes and racists to keep people of lesser economic status and people of color out, is not wrong. What we need is a pro-life democrat and a pro-immigration republican running for president. So I say vote third party.

maxonepercent

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@theband12 They are not "undocumented", that term implies that they are some how eligible for "documentation" which is false. Regardless of their motivations, they have committed an illegal act by immigrating to this country without the authorization to do so, that makes them "illegal immigrants". Following your skewed logic we should start calling burglars "undocumented tenants" and car thieves "undocumented car owners".

Secondly, the idea that these people are somehow "economic victims" is asinine. If they are so poor how is it that they manage to come up with thousands of dollars to pay coyotes to sneak them into our country? It is not like they are starving either. Moreover, what about the "economic victims" in our own country? Ten percent of American-born citizens are out of work right now, another 10% are underemployed. Why should the economic interests of these illegal immigrants be put ahead of the economic interests of our own citizens? What "economic policies" are you referring to exactly? NAFTA cost the US more jobs than it did Mexico, and their government was every bit as complicit in that travesty as was ours, so I don't see why the typical working-class American citizen should have to shoulder the blame.

alyfilm1

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The ultimate oxymoron:

A Catholic who prays in front of Planned Parenthood against abortion and then

turns around and votes FOR a democrat...ANY democrat. Killing unborn children trumps all

other issues.

thomas.prescott.jr

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If God Almighty in his infinite wisdom has given us freedom to choose, why would any faith wish to take that away.? If God wants people to be punished for their sins, why does he need my help to be judge, jury and executioner? In mans limited wisdom, he limits the ability of God, seizes upon religion the tools to hate his neighbor, and to become God and controller over others.

I am disgusted with the attacks of my faith both from outside and inside the Catholic church. i did not become part of the faith to have friends, but to worship God, our Lord Jesus Christ, and our Holy Mother and saints who advocate on our behalf.. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags, we all sin, to claim one sin to be worse than the one you are committing is evil and shows that you favor sin over God. It is man's nature to sin, we try to limit that through our thoughts and deeds over our own lives. We cannot help our brother or sister with their sins when we have a ton of personal sins we are neglecting, nurturing, participating, and promoting. By our grading of sins, we only seek justification to attack others to make us more righteous. This must stop as God is not pleased.

We should all embrace that the founder of the Church is Jesus Christ. It is by grace that we are saved and not of ourselves. It is by his mercy and love that we are forgiven as we forgive others. Jesus Christ is my savior, the only Living son of God, who suffer, died, and rose again on the third day that will rise me from the dead, not Bishop Olmstead, or whatever religious leader who has fallen into the trap of politics like the clergy of the middle ages.

Our duty as Americans to be involved in the political process is outside of the Church. While we may share common beliefs, we do not impose them on the unwilling. I am opposed to Abortion, but as a man I cannot have one, however, I recognize that a mother must always chose what she will do with her body and her family. I cannot speak on the matter of abortion, as I am not female.

Voting for one person will not effect any change of Roe v. Wade, but a combination of changes of all three branches of our government. If we overturn Abortion to make it illegal, it will not stop people from having them, nor will those we place in office assist with the raising, care, and comfort of those children.

It is not I who have stepped away from the teachings of our Lord but the clergy who have wandered into a trap in fighting sin over helping those in need. The issue sickens me and I do not make an effort to attend many parishes because of their partisan involvement. I too am a Liberal as our Lord would be labeled as well and not interested in casting the first stone.

ptcgaz

@thomas.prescott.jr guess what, you band of pedophiles can take none of the abuse it gives out? I'm tired of whiny catholics.

GotMullet

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The issue of abortion is that it is considered such a deep and serious issue, by all involved. The fact that the entire society has had to embrace the law without consent is the issue. I am not pro-choice as defined by that movement, I am not pro-life as defined by the other movement. Many people have other opinions, and are not wishy washy about their feelings about the issue, but, they were not heard or even considered in the passing of Roe v Wade…. with the mere stroke of a pen. Overturn Roe v Wade, it is bad law. Allow the citizens the respect of the constitutional process. It is our right. Regarding immigration... the US policy has been screwed up for years. The result is inconsistent enforcement, or no enforcement. The security and economy of our country is at risk. The risk is not just from the bordering countries. The federal government not fulfilling their purpose has brought us to this point. Immigration should benefit our society, whether it is needed intellect, skills or migrant labor. The conditions should be clear, understandable and implementable. An uncontrolled flux of people across any border is not good. That has only proven to vex our society, whether by the resultant importation of corruption, or the most vulnerable being taken advantage of.The status quo must be stopped. I think that is something we can all agree upon. Don't blame the local governments for trying to protect its own citizens from inequity.

ssn0

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You don't have to vote for either baby killing scumbag - Obama or Romney. Duh.

Romney's pro-abortion record:

http://www.massresistance.org/romney/Amy_Contrada_articles/free_abortions.html

http://massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/health_ins/

http://prolifeprofiles.com/mitt-romney-abortion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Mitt_Romney

http://www.arfwm.org/pdf/abortion_care_in_ma_report.pdf

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57256.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djaffg5MTGE

jackal49

Sad that any voter would rely on what their church leaders tell them when choosing a candidate to select. Those attitudes should have disappeared long ago. A healthy democratic-republic requires--no, DEMANDS--that a voter think for himself or herself. That the woman in this article would agonize over who to vote for based on religious beliefs is a crying shame. God won't be in the voting booth with you, ma'am. Make your decisions based on facts backed up facts supported by facts and temper those decisions with logic and reason. Otherwise, in all seriousness, don't vote at all. If you're voting based on what your bishop or pastor thinks, you're wasting your vote and America's time.

naoma

Darlin, my view are only mine alone. Disagree -- I do not care. I have a mind, great education, and my views are mine to hold. I don't give any credence to religion of any kind. Have had a truly FABulous life and regret none of it. Begone with you!!!!

mopickelly

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Immigration is not some sort of board game wheras when you successfully evade the border patrol and cross into the U.S., and are able to advance ___ miles into the U.S. interior and evade ICE for _____ months or ____ years, you are rewarded the grand prize of legalization with all the benefits that go with it. Illegal is illegal and that is the bottom line. The bible says to welcome the stranger, not to encourage law breaking. Just because illegal aliens are strangers does not exempt them from punshment for ivnvading another country. If you want more of a particular behavior, reward that behavior!!! If we granted amnesty to all illegal aliens tomorrow, would that be enough to satisfy all the open border acvocates. I am afraid the answer is a resounding "no". I am afraid this insanity has advanced to the point of requiring the total elimination of all borders in order to satisfy pro illegal alien crowd.

theband12

@mopickelly First of all, please drop the "i" word, the correct word is undocumented. The word "illegal" dehumanizes them. And the U.S.'s international economic policies have taken the jobs and the money from the people in other countries. They are desperate people and would do anything to survive. Seeking survival is not a sin, it is a human right. And breaking an unjust law, such as the present immigration law, which was created by xenophobes and racists to keep people of lesser economic status and people of color out, is not wrong. And immigration actually helps the economy, it does not hurt it. And when the border was open, people actually went back to their countries. They were more of seasonal workers and did not stay to live in the U.S. When the border was closed, it was not closed to keep the people out, but instead it sealed them in.

mopickelly

@theband12 @mopickelly

Sorry I will not drop the "i" word. I will continue using it when the "shoe fits". The people, yes people. which are the subject of this discussion are here illegtally. They are not simply "undocumented" . I know you would like to imply thaey entered this country correctly and some agent at the border neglected to frill out the properwork. Sorry, that thinking will not hack it. The proper term is "illegal alien".

maxonepercent

@mopickelly @theband12 They knowingly committed a criminal act by moving to this country without authorization, that means they have committed the act of illegal immigration. Calling them "undocumented immigrants" implies that they can somehow obtain "documentation" even though they cannot. Immigration helps the economy does it? Tell that to the 10 percent of unemployed Americans who cannot get jobs while millions of illegal immigrants are illegally occupying jobs in our country at this moment. The only people helped by Illegal immigration are corrupt business owners, criminal smugglers, drug-dealers, and dirty politicians. I also reject the absurd notion that these people are "desperate economic victims". How do these supposedly "poor" people manage to come up with the thousands of dollars they need to pay the coyotes to bring them into the US exactly?

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maxonepercent

@olsonandko The problem with this argument is that abortion is not simply a religious issue. There are many "secular humanists" who reject the notion of a supreme deity but who still find abortion abhorrent. In plain scientific terms abortion is the destruction of life. Why is it that a mother would be charged with murder if she kills her baby moments after it is born, but if she did the same thing just a few months earlier it is a perfectly acceptable act?

naoma

Dear Sir: I am one of those people who have no religion, so your message falls on "deaf ears." I am no Judas. I am no "anything." How has the Vatican made a statement on the pedophile priests?. I know a few men who have been victims of this sordid topic. How can anyone attend a church and give their money to it when they know of these child victims preyed upon by the

Holy Church's priests? Just asking.

mdkpubs

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@naoma I've already answered your question sufficiently, so either you refuse to read, refuse to accept the truth (which is quite obvious), and/or can't understand what was said. For the new question, The Catholic Church is Holy. Unfaithful priests can't affect that. The behavior of any man can't affect that. The holiness of God's Church is in her infallible teachings of God's word, and the indefectable Sacraments. These are guaranteed by God, while men's behavior is not. You are a creation of God who loves you, whether you admit that or not. His dissatisfaction with your prejudice doesn't stop Him from loving you, and would welcome you to the truth if you would accept the truth.

naoma

@mdkpubs @naoma Sorry, but "your truth" is not "my truth." I have no argument with what your beliefs are. I am not prejudiced in any way just because my belief system does not include religion. Your "truth" is yours but not MINE. So, let us live in peace. I've had a long and quite fabulous life and continue to do so. But good luck and best wishes to you and when you meet your maker -- may peace be with you.

mdkpubs

@naoma you might not enjoy the afterlife too well, unless you seek to love God... He certainly loves you and will help you.

mdkpubs

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@naoma no, what I said was what you call "truth" is not in reality truth at all.

naoma

@mdkpubs @naoma Ok. My "truth" is not your Truth. What an argument. My life is not YOUR LIFE. I live in the real world and have choices. You chose your life and I chose the way I live mine. I have been around a long, long, long time and am enjoying every bit of life.

mdkpubs

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@naoma your "truth" is not Truth at all. There is objective reality, and your opinions are nowhere close to reality.

mdkpubs

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There is no conundrum for the faithful Catholic. The Vatican has made it very clear that topics like immigration, and how to best take care of the poor are IN NO WAY COMPARABLE WITH INTRINSIC EVIL OF ABORTION. So, if you want to be a Judas, vote for Obama. If you want to be faithful to Christ, one has no choice but to vote for one who best opposes this intrinsic evil... which in this case is Romney. Regarding the Catholics on each ticket, we have a terribly unfaithful "Catholic"in regard to non-negotiables in Biden, and a very faithful Catholic on non-negotiables in Ryan.

m2old4bs

@mdkpubs Yet Ryan lies, without shame, consistently. It is a terrible habit Ryan has, one that he has been called on, yet he doubles down on the lies. Ryan promotes a public policy that fundamentally denies benefits to the poor, the disabled, the sick, the very young and the very old. Ryan has no problem with the poor paying more across the board so that the rich can have greater profits. It appears Ryan also has no issues with pedophiles or rapists, not even when it is a priest, for he has been more than silent. Rather, he sees rape as a viable method of conception. Ryan idolizes and is a devout follower of Ayn Rand, whose philosophy developed the Church of Satan, a cult that Ryan ignores, yet whose tenets he promotes. Ryan may be a "faithful" Catholic on reproduction issues, but he is a Judas when it comes to walking with Jesus.

maxonepercent

@m2old4bs @mdkpubs When has Ryan lied? Also, where in the bible does it say that the government is responsible for caring for the poor? Both Ryan and Romney give copious amounts of money to religious charities, money that is used to provide aide to poor people all around the world. The church has always taken it upon themselves to provide for the poor and they do so throughout the world, even in places that have no social services to speak of.

And now I get to the part about Ayn Rand and the Church of Satan. The "Church of Satan" was created at least 50 years before Rand was even born, so there goes that crackpot allegation.

JacquelineHine1

A woman's right to choose will not affect U, DADT may affect U, the DREAM act will affect U, Pres Obama deserves your vote @justamexican

justamexican

@JacquelineHine1 As a son, a father of a woman, and husband, the right control your reproductive future effects me, it's why I defend it.

Atchison

As a Catholic, I think about what I was taught growing up, attending Catholic grammer school, living and watching time pass since the 1950s. I really do believe in what Jesus taught - to care for the poor, the sick, those scorned and abused. I do not vote on one issue - and I do believe that abortion in the case of rape, incest, or to protect the health of the mother (as determined by medical professionals) are private decisions that should not include the government - and sometimes can be the right decision. Never an easy decision - but I do believe that what a woman wants for herself matters and it matters what parents want for a young girl who has been raped. I realize I do not agree with my Church, but life is far messier than the rules allow for - and life lived sometimes requires unbelievable choices be made. When it gets that messy, then individual conscience matters.

As a citizen I believe in freedom and equality under the law. Gay people should be able to marry and receive all the civil benefits that straight people receive. No one forces any faith group to conduct a marriage ceremony or bless a union. I believe that society can respect equal rights for gay people without that being an imposition on any single faith group. Straight marriage is not affected by gay marriage.

I believe that contraceptives help couples order their lives, make plans about when to have children and how many children to have so that the parents can feed, clothe, shelter, educate, raise their children in faith and citizenship. I think it is an adult decision to behave responsibly about child-bearing. And most Catholic women - which means their husbands know and support it - use contraceptives; and Catholic women are more likely than non-Catholic women to be sterilized after they have had all the children they want. Shouldn't those basic health care issues be included in health insurance? No one is forced to take a pill or be sterilized - but each person is given the opportunity to exercise his/her own conscience. It is not religious freedom when the government lets a religious group deny you your own freedom.

maxonepercent

@Atchison I guess you can call yourself a catholic if you want, but if these are your true beliefs then you are most definitely NOT a catholic. You can't have your cake and eat it too, you either follow the dogma of the church or you exist outside of it.

mdkpubs

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@Atchison for a mother to murder her child is furthering the violence of a rape. Many women who have been raped have felt this way. Rape is a terrible crime, but the murder of the child continues the evil of the rape and yhe act does more damage than the rape itself.

mdkpubs

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@Atchison if you were a faithful Catholic, you would know that abortion is a non-negotiable, as is homosexual unions. These cannot be justified, and are against the moral natural law. It's not a single issue to look at abortion as a disqualifier. It's a world view of supporting life! How can you say you take care of the weakest in society, when you say tey really had no right to live in the first pace. From all eternity, God wanted you and me to live. God believed we had a right to life, as did all the babies whose parent thought they did not, and killed them - taking away all other rights they might enjoy as a human person... What do you say to these children... tough luck, you think their parent(s) had a right to eliminate their life while they could not fight back to defend their selves? What do you say to God, Who from all eternity ordained that this child come into existence... do you say to him that you know better than Him?

naoma

@Atchison Thank you for comments that make sense. As I have said since time began: "If you do not want an abortion, do not have one." Have these "anti" people ever met a child who was raped and pregnant. Perhaps even by her Father? As my

doctor said: "If one man would have a baby and go through labor, etc." you would have a lot of men change their minds on many topics.

mdkpubs

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@naoma @Atchison, why do you both say it's acceptable for an adult to murder an innocent child? Are women confused about what makes one pregnant? If they don't want to be pregnant, don't have sex!!! Atchison, does it give you a clue how far off the mark you are when a nonbeliever compliments you on your unfaithfulness to Catholic moral non-negotiables?

mdkpubs

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@Atchison if you want to call yourself Catholic, please adhere to the teachings God gave us Catholics. You're currently terribly unfaithful... Why don't you call yourself a Protestant, and at least be honest... God is not fooled.

Atchison

@mdkpubs @Atchison

Baptised, confirmed, life-long, mass attending. But my brain did not get turned off in the meantime and neither did my heart. There are millions of Catholics like me, who believe that contraceptives are a conscience choice made by adults. Most people, including Catholics, don't like abortion one bit, but there are times when an abortion protects a woman.

The Church grows and changes because people who see what is wrong speak up. The Church changed its mind on slavery, usury, democracy, the inquisition and torture, science which contradicts the Bible, much else and is slowly changing its mind on contraceptives. They made saints out of some of those old sinners who opposed them. (But that, as I am sure you will agree, will not happen in my case.) We have deplorable actions by our bishops in covering up the sexual abuse of children and it would still be a deep dark and continuing horror if it hadn't come to light - no bishop ever took a step to tell even part of the truth until forced to by public disclosure.

"Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one's own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority." Joseph Ratzinger on article 16 of Gaudem et Spes, in Volume 5 of the "Commentary on Documents of Vatican II", edited by Vorgrimler (New York/London 1969). Or read St. Thomas Aquinas, who said: ""Anyone upon whom the ecclesiastical authority, in ignorance of true facts, imposes a demand that offends (his) clear conscience, should perish in excommunication rather than violate (his) conscience. " Read about the doctrine of Reception of Canonical Law and sensus fidelium.

mdkpubs

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@Atchison the Church has NEVER declared one a saint who supported murder of innocent children, as you do. The Church has NEVER declared a saint one who twists canon law in an attempt to support their own personal views. The Church has NEVER once had to declare a doctrine of her's wrong... no matter how many arrogant and prideful people disagree with her moral teachings. Why? Because Jesus guarantees the teachings on faith and morals are without error. If you can disprove any Catholic doctrine, I'll give you $10,000. Your personal disagreements with Jesus don't count as "proof" other than showing how wrong you are.

mdkpubs

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@Atchison the personal behaviors of men, including Bishops are NOT Catholic moral teaching. In fact, these behaviors have been unfaithful to Catholic moral teaching.

mdkpubs

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@Atchison the Church teaches that abortion is an intrinsic evil, which can never be justified. Please open your heart to the truth, rather than seeking to twist history and canon law to pretend it supports what you want. Abortion has NEVER been a moral good... and never will. Why do you say it's okay for an person or persons to kill a completely innocent child? That is a definition of murder. Where did God ever say murder is acceptable?

mdkpubs

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@Atchison the Church grows because of the Holy Spirit. It has never "grown" because an arrogant unfaithful person (like you are being), disagrees with doctrine or misinterprets a statement by a Cardinal, as you do and have. It's. Abundantly clear that you have no idea what Ratzinger meant.

mdkpubs

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@Atchison the Church has NEVER once repealed a doctrine. I know canon law well, and unlike you, I don't try to twist it to justify unfaithfulness. By your own admission, you should be excommunicated... you may already be excommunicated in your heart and twisted faith. You are not a faithful Catholic.

mdkpubs

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@Atchison unfortunately, there are millions of unfaithful people like you who like to call yourself Catholic, but don't follow the teachings. Catholicism is a kingdom, with Christ as the King. It's not a democracy. Artificial contraception is a moral evil. You are NOT free to disagree and call yourself faithful. By your own admission, you are very unfaithful to Christ the King. You are "Catholic in name only", not in belief.

naoma

RE: IMMIGRANTS. My husband is British; he came to America years ago and had a job. He studied, too the citizenship test, and went to court with an attorney I know to become a citizen.

NO FREE PASS. Abortion is legal. Get over it. If YOU DO NOT WANT ONE -- DO NOT HAVE ONE.

ssn0

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@naoma

Slavery was legal also.

mdkpubs

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@naoma abortion IS MURDER. Get a clue! Just because the legal system is in error, doesn't mean it's right. If abortion is a human right, why do the supporters say it should be rare??? If abortion is such a good thing, why is at least one person killed each time??? Abortion is safe for who???? Certainly not safe for the completely inocent human child!!!

naoma

@mdkpubs @naoma An early abortion is only a few cels. There is no "baby." And, if you can raise a few cels to college age, I might change my mind.

naoma

@mdkpubs @naoma Thanks a "bunch" but I am way too long in years to change my mind. Have lived this long to know that I cannot be changed or modified or anything. I fear not death nor anything. Just "life's next adventure!!"

naoma

@Ariana_B @mdkpubs Darlin' I fear you have me confused with someone else. My daughter went to OXFORD!!!

La di dah. Biology is so far beyond my education that it is "grade school stuff." Because I am a non-believer in religion does not make me a "nut job." See you. A Catholic I am not. A believer in any religion I AM NOT. You do not want to know me. I DO NOT CARE one whit about your beliefs, so let it go. Follow your own path, as I do mine. END OF DISCUSSION. Peace to you.

Ariana_B

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@naoma @mdkpubs wow, cels? Sounds like naoma flunked grade school biology.

mdkpubs

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@naoma you were raised from a few cells to become where you are, although your views are not matured to truthfulness.

mdkpubs

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@naoma everyone's choices are theirs. We will allhave to answer for them someday. God's Catholic Church informs one's cons cience so hopefully one will know how to proceed with good, moral decisions.

mdkpubs

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@naoma you closed your mind to truth long ago... it's how you've ended up with such poor, untruthful ideas.

naoma

@mdkpubs @naoma End of discussion for me. A few cels are not a person -- you cannot RAISE them to be an adult. If a woman does not want to get pregnant there are pills, condoms, etc. If she gets pregnant she is legally entitled to have an abortion if she so chooses. It is the law -- now anyhow. How many women have you met who were raped and pregnant by their father? I have met a few and their choice to not bear the child was theirs alone.

mdkpubs

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@naoma your "knowledge" of science is poor. The baby is in the early stages of development. After conception, noyhing else is added to the human person, just development occurs with nutrition and oxygen. Even at a few cells, this is human life. The new human has a different set of DNA from the mother, so the two cannot be confused!!!